Norwegian Victims of Gun Control

When will we learn that disarming potential victims seals their fate?

We shared the worldwide sorrow when a large explosion in Norway killed 7 people.  That was bad enough, but it was later reported that a gunman had killed at least 80 people, mostly children, at an isolated summer camp on an island near Oslo.

Although some say there was more than one shooter, most media are reporting that a lone right-wing gunman dressed in a police uniform and gained access to the island by claiming it was a routine security check after the Oslo bombing.

The earliest speculations assigned blame to Muslims, but it seems that the gunman, who is a Norwegian citizen, had political motives which are not yet completely clear.  Some terrorism experts say that battle plans found on the web have an "eerie resemblance" to the writings of Al Qaeda except from a Christian/Western perspective rather than Muslim.

The early indications are that he was opposed to Muslim immigration and was advocating war against Islam - though so far as we know, he did not in fact kill any Muslims.  This sentiment is gaining ground in Europe as more and more Europeans feel that their nations are being overrun by foreigners who refuse to assimilate.  As the New York Times put it,

On the big picture, Europe’s cultural conservatives are right: Mass immigration really has left the Continent more divided than enriched, Islam and liberal democracy have not yet proven natural bedfellows and the dream of a postnational, postpatriotic European Union governed by a benevolent ruling elite looks more like a folly every day[emphasis added]

The camp was being operated by the ruling leftist political party and the campers were mostly children of senior party members.  Regardless of his motives, the gunman has certainly riveted the attention of the governing class, demonstrating one way in which terrorists can be effective.

Victim Disarmament Zones

As we've seen so many times here in the United States, the Norwegian camping island presented a situation where a lone gunman was able to kill a large number of unarmed victims at relatively little personal risk - he ended up being arrested instead of blowing himself up.  Most of the victims were children, but though there were adults on the island, they were unarmed and were totally unable to protect their charges.  The murderer freely went about his reign of terror for the entire hour and a half it took for police to finally arrive.

The victims of the Ft. Hood shooting were trained military personnel instead of children, but in accordance with their base regulations, they weren't carrying their weapons at the time of the attack.  Our leaders refused to admit that Islam might have had anything to do with that incident, but they're happily assigning blame for the Norwegian massacre to conservatives.

The New York Times reports that such random-seeming attacks are likely to become more common:

“If it does turn out to be someone with more political motivations, it shows these groups are learning from what they see from Al Qaeda,” said Brian Fishman, a counterterrorism researcher at the New America Foundation in Washington. “One lesson I take away from this is that attacks, especially in the West, are going to move to automatic weapons.”  [emphasis added]

If Al Qaeda has taught the world anything, it's demonstrated that it's relatively easy for a single person to kill a great many unarmed victims and survive, so long as he picks a prominently-posted gun-free zone to do it in.

Lessons We're Not Allowed To Learn

Terrorism both foreign and domestic is becoming more common.  The London subway bombers were born in England, "Jihad Jane" was born in America, the left-wing crazy who shot Rep. Giffords and 20 others was born in America, an American gunman killed 5 people in a New York commuter train, and it seems that the Oslo shooter was a native-born Norwegian.

Innocent victims are just as dead whether shot by leftists, rightists, Islamists, Buddists, Zoroastrians, or whatever.  The common themes a desire to murder, yes, but also the use of more than just bare hands and knives to do so.

Our lefty friends follow this truth to the conclusion that, since guns kill people, nobody should have guns - but the American cities with the strictest gun-control laws are just those places where the gun violence is greatest.  You don't find many mass killings at West Virginia schools, say, because the students riddle the gunman before he can get off more than a few shots.

Over time, a few points should be starting to sink in:

  • There's simply no way to keep guns out of unauthorized hands.  Norway has far stricter gun control laws than America and a much more uniform society, yet the shooter was able to get his hands on a gun and enough ammunition to kill at least 80 people - as well as a police uniform, so that even if anyone saw him walking around with a weapon, they'd think nothing of it.
  • Shooters can pick their time and place.  It's simply not possible to hire enough police to protect everyone, everywhere, and if it were, they'd be highly susceptible to a ringer like the Norwegian murderer.
  • "Single-person shooter" computer games give anyone ample opportunities to practice stalking and shooting people.  The overwhelming majority of gamers will never harm anyone, just like the overwhelming majority of Agatha Christie readers will never poison anyone, but the knowledge is out there for those who desire to do evil.
  • Even a country as small as Norway has places where police can't respond fast.  As the saying goes, "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."  It took 45 minutes for police to arrive at the camp after they were called, and as long again for them to find a boat and get over to the island scene of slaughter since their helicopter was in the shop.
  • We've seen recent armed attacks in Mumbai, China, a German school, and other nations with strict gun control.  Not even the near-totalitarian Chinese government can sustain a monopoly of force.

The bottom line is that modern weapons are so powerful, so cheap, and so common that societies all over the world have lost the ability to eliminate them and protect their citizens that way.  The only way to stop the slaughter of innocents is to allow trained civilians to carry guns.

Despite vehement liberal opposition to gun rights, armed civilians prevent more crimes in America than police do.  The sooner that people at large understand that the only defense is self-defense, the safer we'll all be.

Will Offensicht is a staff writer for and an internationally published author by a different name.  Read other articles by Will Offensicht or other articles on Foreign Affairs.
Reader Comments

An armed society is a polite society!

July 25, 2011 9:37 AM

This little hidden nugget you threw in is BRILLIANT:

"The overwhelming majority of gamers will never harm anyone, just like the overwhelming majority of Agatha Christie readers will never poison anyone, but the knowledge is out there for those who desire to do evil."

As a Poirot fan, I can attest that this is a salient point.

July 25, 2011 9:44 AM

Trained civilians? TRAINED CIVILIANS!?!?
Who is going to train them? And who is going to say that they are now trained? Whose standards will we use? Would you, Mr. Offensicht, suggest that this be a government program? Government programs are, after all, so very successful, aren't they?
I received my basic training in firearms from my father. He cared. He did not want me to accidentally shoot myself or someone else. My training was not for self defense, but to hunt for food. That was the reason for the training. It was also for sport. Target shooting and such.
The United States Army gave me further training on how to kill other human beings.
Would you consider, Mr. Offensicht, that only those who are "trained" be allowed to have a weapon in their home for self defense? Would there be a "trained" gunman on each block to protect all of the citizens in that limited area? The goon squads called "police" cannot handle the job, and they have been "trained".
The right to self defense is a natural right granted by Nature and Nature's God. When man intervenes, we have a problem. My right, and yours, sir, to self defense is unlimited. By whatever means available- whether it be a big stick, a slingshot, a blunderbuss, a bazooka, or being able to run.
Thank you,
Robert Walker


July 25, 2011 10:07 AM

My reading of "trained civilians" is merely a reference to the assumption that people would arm and train themselves.

I don't believe the author is suggesting that a government agency should monitor, manage and license the "trainees" in some sort of bureaucratic way.

I won't put words in the author's mouth, but I've read Scragged waaaaaay too long to believe that that is what the author had in mind.

July 25, 2011 10:11 AM

The author wrote "trained civilians". And I asked if he was suggesting a government program of some sort. I asked the question. I actually made no assumption. I asked for clarification.
The only assumption made, was by you.
Would you suggest, Ifon, that a man or woman be given a gun, and expect them to "train" themselves? Put someone behind the wheel of a car and tell them to drive. How well trained will they be?
The term "trained civilians" indicates a limit. Only "trained" personnel will be able to carry a weapon.
What standards will we use? Who will do the training? Who will determine as to whether or not one is trained? Will there be a test? Who will administer the test? From where will the power and right come to those who will do the training and certification?
There are all sorts of trained people who cannot do one thing without some sort of supervision.
Hitler's brown shirts were trained civilians.
Thank you,
Robert Walker

July 25, 2011 10:55 AM

I think Will's article is well thought out and correct. I was particularly pleased to see that he described some shooters as leftists. I, as a conservative believe that all shooters are leftists are the shooters. My opinion is based on these observations that I have made. The right or conservative people want freedom to do as it pleases in life, life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness. The left likes to be taken care of by others so as to make it fair, they want what they think is their piece of the pie without working for the piece. As a result these leftists use force or the threat of a gun to get their way. This gunman in Norway knew of only one way to get his way and that was through force. He obviously could not change things with this one incident but he could affect people's attitudes in the future by not wanting to provoke another massacre such as his. This is where political correctness originates. I agree with Will that more gun are the answer, not less and as to the training aspect of the gun owner, he/she does not need a government mandated program.

July 25, 2011 11:01 AM

"Would you suggest, Ifon, that a man or woman be given a gun, and expect them to "train" themselves? Put someone behind the wheel of a car and tell them to drive. How well trained will they be?"

Very well actually. The majority of proper gun training can ONLY be self taught because of the incentive each person has to not kill themselves or their family members.

You can't train a slaphappy idiot to not blow his own legs off just by going over the mechanics of single action versus double action and how to aim.

Mishandled guns tend to kill the person that mishandled them or their immediate family far more than random strangers.

I don't think anyone should be "given" anything, whether that be guns or training. I think people should be allowed to do as they please with guns. In other words, the government steps out of the way, and individuals can arm themselves (or not) as they see fit.

At the very VERY most, the only thing the government should require is that gun dealers check a "I passed gun 101 training and have this certificate" from the buyer before selling them a gun. The 101 training course would be completely private, not administered by the government or logged in any database. The act of showing a certificate that "I got training from someone" should be good enough. I don't support this option but it is the only thing the government should enforce, at most. Yes, I realize that anyone could easily fake it. So what?

July 25, 2011 11:14 AM

To answer Robert's question, training should be done either by parents or by organizations such as the NRA. Gun safety isn't complicated; it's simpler than driving a car. The rule of thumb is that an instructor won't pass a student unless he or she would be willing to go hunting with that person.

You are correct about government's incapacity to regulate much of anything. The carnage on our highways shows that government can't regulate roads, Bernie Madoff shows that they can't regulate investments. Hospital-induced infections can easily be prevented by urging staff to wash their hands as Semmelweis discovered in 1847. Infection rates in our government-approved hospitals shows that government can't even get nurses to wash their hands.

If push were to come to shove, it would probably be better to allow anyone 21 or older, or military age, whichever is lower, to buy a firearm than to let government be in charge of licensing. The BATF is the clowns who urged or forced gun stores sell automatic weapons to people the stores KNEW were up to no good, then let the weapons be taken to Mexico, and used the resulting carnage as an excuse to call for stricter gun regulations in the US.

you are correct, they should stay out of it. To be technical, it's "shall issue" as opposed to "may issue" but that's another topic.

July 25, 2011 11:17 AM

Anders Behring Breivik as is presented in the press is a “Legend” in
spook parlance. A mythical creation of espionage. A Prefab sprout.
Most likely a Monarch MK [mind controled 'Mandcherian Candidate'].

The more I see of this the more my initial intuition is reinforced.

Means, motive and opportunity give us one primary suspect, Western
Intel, with a false flag psyop. The operation could have been carried
out by one specific agency, or a combo thereof. Mossad has some of the
best teams, but the NATO Gladio type operatives are also well honed
in such actions.

“The attack in Oslo also came 65 years to the very day after the
Israeli Irgun blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem”…Eileen

Perhaps part of an anniversary celebration, as morbid as that may seem.

July 25, 2011 12:14 PM

It seems I may have made a mistake. The term "trained civilians" got my Irish up.
The event in Oslo, Norway was a false flag operation. It was designed to bring about an opinion that the United Nations should "license" all gun owners.
A lone gunman sets off a bomb in a city. Soon after that event, he is found on an Island murdering children. An island that the police couldn't reach for one and a half hours.
According to a report from that I received this morning, a newspaper reported in Norway that witnesses had seen a second gunman. The report was quashed. News outlets are controlled in Europe as well as here in our part of the United Nations.
How many of us believe the lone gunman theory of the JFK murder? How many of us believe the lone gunman theory of the murder of Bobby Kennedy, or that of Martin Luther King? How many of us believe that the Angle/Reid election was honest?
A lone gunman murdered more than 90 people by last report? Get outta here.
The event in Oslo was a false flag operation to bring about world wide cries for banning assault weapons, except for the police and military of course.
Did Mr. Offensicht use that phrase to put our attention on the wrong item? I certainly hope not. The phrase was used because the think is bent that way by the government brainwashers. It affects us all.
But, There is no conspiracy.
Thank you,
Robert Walker

July 25, 2011 12:16 PM

I think it is obvious that if the 2 Amendment were actually law of the land, most people would be adept at the use of firearms by generational knowledge with in one or two.
Most parents taught their kids to drive up until the "lunatic future" that arrived some 20 years ago...

July 25, 2011 12:18 PM

Norway Oil Fund Divests From Israeli Companies.
Norway supports Palestinian independence, de jure UN membership, and Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Store heads an international aid committee for Palestine. Moreover, its parliament earlier passed initiatives critical of Israel, and Finance Minister Kristin Halvorsen (from 2005 - 2009, now Education Minister) proposed boycotting Israeli products in 2006 though Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg disapproved.

“Norway had reduced its contingent to four planes during the month of July, and had announced on June 10 that it was planning to withdraw altogether from the NATO bombing coalition no later than August 1.

At the present stage of the inquiry, the best estimate of a motive for the Norwegian attacks is to punish the country for its independent and pro-Arab foreign policy in general, and for its repudiation of the NATO bombing coalition arrayed against Libya in particular.”

However, in August 2010, Norway declined to purchase Israeli military products because of tensions between Israel and Palestine as well as its neighbors.
Moreover, the notion of a lone bomber/gunman is very suspect, especially one able to kill 91 people, an unprecedented nearly impossible feat single-handed.

Another telltale critical sign of a false flag operation is the holding of drills or exercises –allegedly for counterterrorism purposes — by the police or the military at the same time as the terror attack, or shortly before the real terror attack begins. Sometimes, the terror drills or exercises are scheduled to begin slightly after the time when the actual terror attack occurs. In these cases, it is often discovered that the self-styled anti-terror drill or exercise contains a simulated action or event which strongly resembles the real world terror attack, the one which actually kills people. The media will then refer to an astounding coincidence or a weird happenstance, but the reality is that the terror drill has been taken live or flipped live in the form of real killings. The secret is that the legally sanctioned drill has been used to conduit or bootleg the actual butchery through a government bureaucracy whose resources are required to run the terror but in which there are many officials who cannot be allowed to know what is happening.

July 25, 2011 12:27 PM

Another question: How did the gunman know of the children on the island? Is that the type of information that would be widespread?
Days of planning or maybe weeks,were needed for a successful operation.
WW pointed out some very cogent facts. I tend to off half-cocked, but fully loaded, so to speak.
Thank you,
Robert Walker

July 25, 2011 12:38 PM

From what I've read, the island event was well known by everyone in the area. A standard annual affair.

It was a gathering of Labour Party youth which is why he targeted it to begin with.

The Norwegian Prime Minster showed up there the same day which was icing on the cake. He was hoping to get her too but she left before he arrived:

July 25, 2011 1:00 PM

"It was a gathering of Labour Party youth which is why he targeted it to begin with."~Ifon

How do you know the intent of the 'shooter'?

There was a rally for Palesinian statehood some days before the shooting as well - which is not an annual event in any way.

So, I take it that we are all meant to believe whatever script falls out of the MSMs oriface as gospel? "Until we know something different" do you say? And just where and when to you hope to discover this?

The Patsy Milieu:
>Breivik's Father was a diplomat for Norway in London. Breivik's father, Jens,[19] was a Siviløkonom (Norwegian professional title, literally "civil economist"), who worked as a diplomat for the Royal Norwegian Embassy in London.

>John Hinckley, Jr.
Bush Family Involvement in Reagan Assassination Attempt The Unsolved Mystery of the Bush/Hinckley Dinner Date.

>Sirhan Sirhan
A stable hand at Desi Arnez'[right-wing Anti Castro Cuban] horse ranch.
Sirhan' Green Card grandfathered by Richard Nixon.

>Chapman, assassin of John Lennon, was part of World Vision Ministries, associated with the 'Right-wing'Anticominturn millieu, as well as CIA Monarch programming.

Just to touch the surface of Patsy Legends...

July 25, 2011 1:42 PM

"How do you know the intent of the 'shooter'?"

Um... Because the guy said so.

Did you watch his video or read his manifesto?

He openly stated that he targeted the Labor Party youth so that the party wouldn't have future recruits. Dead children don't grow up into voting adults.

"So, I take it that we are all meant to believe whatever script falls out of the MSMs oriface as gospel?"

Forget the MSM and their orifices. The horse's mouth is moving.

July 25, 2011 1:48 PM

IfonI see you were answering Walker's question about the public nature of the Island events...

I didn't mean to particularly jump your bones. but to point out the possible connections to Norway support for Palestinian statehood as a motive for a state sanction false flag op.

Just consider these things as more shakes out in the coming days.

July 25, 2011 1:49 PM

Mr. Offensicht article makes some sense but there were at least two errors I am aware of. First he states that it took the authorities "an hour and a half to respond." He corrects that later in the article. Second, he states that such a thing would not happen at a West Virginia school. Technically, he is correct. But not far away a similar clime, the Virginia Tech gunman managed to kill 30+ people in about 20 minutes, using semi-automatic pistols, IIRC. Also, that latter point suggest that it is entirely possible for a lone gunman with a fully-automatic assault rifle to kill 80+ people in the time he had. The conspiracy theory folks on this board are pre-disposed to their thinking, just as the people who believe we didn't land on the moon.

July 25, 2011 1:56 PM

"Um... Because the guy said so..."

Was he playing Solitaire and had just picked up the Queen of Hearts?

[If that makes no sense to you Ifon, I refer to 'The Mancherian Candidate'.]

I recall Lee Harvey Oswald, who shared office space with Guy Bannister, {FBI] handing out "Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets in New Orleans.
I recall a radio interview with Oswald where he was promoting the same org. and how he flubbed up and said he was under the protection of the US while in Russia...

In other words - I recall. Memory, it is a very good attribute.

July 25, 2011 1:58 PM

I do feel like there are conspiracies flying on this one. Something doesn't seem right. Numbers and reports keep changing, and I don't just mean the body counts.

We've heard big swings from "he's a Muslim" to "he HATES Muslims"

Notice this blog post:

The shooter actually had two Facebook pages, one in Norwegian the other in English. The Norwegian one says nothing about being either Christian or conservative. Only the English one does, and before it was purged, the Google cache indicated that the notations "Christian" and "conservative" were added to that page AFTER he was in police custody.

Willy may be shining the light on this one.

It's hard to know what to think at the moment.

July 25, 2011 1:58 PM

"conspiracy theory folks ...just as the people who believe we didn't land on the moon."~John Volk

"Clever"? juxtaposition...tired and flacid, lame and so old.

In describing the mechanisms of covert activities, that are as much a port of the open historical record as the moon landing, the term "conspiracy theorist" is a tried and true slur to attempt to handwve any information offered on that account.
So you perhaps have some affiliation with the Sustein opperations?
Oh no surely not that - never even heard of Sustein. Right?

"Virginia Tech gunman managed to kill 30+ people in about 20 minutes, using semi-automatic pistols."~Volk

Yes, in an inclosed room - rather like a shooting gallery at sitting ducks.
Several witnesses and survivors from the island shootings have already testified that there was at least one more shooter.

Pick and choose your info as you will sir.

July 25, 2011 2:13 PM

Being something of a gun nut myself, I do wonder how he killed that many people by himself.

I personally own several assault rifles and handguns. I have fired full-auto weapons.

The boat people said that the shooter was dressed as a policeman and was carrying the matching fire arms. Policeman do not carry full auto machine guns. Feds carry sub-machine guns but those would even be too small.

To kill almost one hundred people, you have to take a LOT more than a hundred shots. A hundred people aren't going to sit in a quiet row and wait for you to go down the line picking off each person. Even if they did, you'd have to reload a good 10 times, depending on the handgun. With a small sub-machine gun, you'd need to reload at least 5 times. With a machine gun and drum magazine, you need to reload twice. It takes a LONG time to reload those kind of magazines. It can take 30 minutes to load a drum mag.

I know that the police took hours to get there, but it would still be very difficult. People run, hide and defend themselves. You'd need 50 or 60 pounds of ammo.

If I hadn't hear anything except that 80+ people were killed in an hour on an island, I would automatically guess that we're talking about a 3 man hit squad minimum.

July 25, 2011 2:20 PM

We've heard big swings from "he's a Muslim" to "he HATES Muslims"~Ifon

Yes, pay very close attention. The Memory Hole of purging various items is a sign of...foul play on someones part.

Lara Croft once asked “WHO sits in THIS Chair”??????Who sits on the Throne????

I hope a character from fiction is alright to use for a point.
The question is WHO is running this operation?

Things will shake out, and we shall see. I am still betting on my horse, he is Pegasus. {grin}

July 25, 2011 2:21 PM

BTW, I mentioned Sustein, that is Cass Sustein, a disinformation specialist recruiting agents to rebuke "conspiracy theorists" on the web.
He is {I think still} the 'communications czar' for the Obama regime.

July 25, 2011 2:27 PM

As the story developed Friday, almost every news outlet was quick to provide experts on Muslim terrorism and how that might have a growing negative impact on Norway and Europe. On Anderson Cooper, Friday afternoon, as he had his experts on Jihadism on camera, he was being told by another person – a CNN reporter – that the shooter, possibly the bomber, was a blond Norwegian. Cooper seemed to be taken aback, turning back to his Jihad experts, who were dismissive of the new information.

Such neglectful and downright manipulative reporting of a devastating event will undoubtedly be used in future to justify further US/NATO aggression against perceived "threats", long after the truth may be revealed and rumours exposed as false speculations.

July 25, 2011 2:42 PM

First, the Virginia Tech shootings occurred over a period of two hours in two separate locations and in multiple classrooms. So, while a classroom is a closed situation, so is a small island.

Second, children look to adults and authority and are not likely to run in many cases. The fact that a "policeman" walked around the corner of a building where perhaps the adults had gathered them may have meant they were at least initially together with their group. There were probably multiple groups.

Third, pre-loaded clips meant little time would be wasted in re-loading. How many times have you seen pictures of clips duct-taped together so they could just be turned over to resume firing?

Fourth, I have no connection with the Obama folks. I am Libertarian. I don't believe in most gun laws. (I don't see the reason for owning an RPG launcher, for instance but I do believe the NRA could play an even more active role in training people so they could own a gun under license). My brother is a retired FBI agent and I am friends with an agent who was in Dallas for a month helping investigate the JFK assassination. I don't know the person (Sustein)and I generally don't spend much time on these things. I still believe that most conspiracy theories are attempts to explain the seemingly unexplainable.

July 25, 2011 3:01 PM

Mr. Volk,

I speak to intelligence analysis, something I have been into for some 35 plus years. I am explaining the mechanics of Covert Operations hear.
By definition covert operations are "conspiracies," officially sanctioned actions of states.

The major portion of the Virginia tech killings took place in one location, there were minor numbers at others.

It is so that the police uniform was a draw to the innitial victims on the island in Norway. I will hand you that, however after the initial barrage the element of suprise or subterfuge is lost.
The claims of a lone gunman are ignoring the eye witness reports of at least one other gunman by survivors.

So are we to dismiss this as the witnesses to bombs at the WTC towers have been dismissed by 'The Deniers'? {as opposed to 'The Truthers'}...

The fact that there were 'bomb squad' activities some 48 hours before the bomb going off at the government buildings plaza, is another 'hallmark' of these types of covert ops, wherein a 'realworld' event is piggybacked on a 'need to know' type official exercise.

MO, means, motive, opportunity, cui bono. These are the forensic hallmarks that are followed in this type of open source investigation.

In my estimation we are dealing with a state sanctioned covert op, or we are deling with a real life Borne Identity. I am not much of a beliver of Hollywood as a model for such things as this. I do not buy into coincidence theory.

This event has all the classic hallmarks of historical false flag ops, it is almost mundane in its imprint, like a recipe out of a cookbook.

I don't really take you for an agent - I simply take you as naive, a common attribute of a social engineered population. I yanked your chain to get you to speak up more. Thank you for doing so.

July 25, 2011 3:46 PM

Explanation for John Volk:
One lone man bombed an office building.
Some time later he was on an island that was populated with mostly children. It took the police 1 and 1/2 hours to reach the island. Children are mostly unarmed, unless in Iraq, Pakistan, or the like. Children will look to adults for protection. Children will run and hide from danger, or a perceived danger, whether or not an adult is with them. It is called self preservation. The newborn has the capability of doing something about self preservation. They cry when hungry.
And if you believe the FBI agent who helped to investigate the JFK murder, I have a bridge to sell you.
Thank you,
Robert Walker

July 25, 2011 3:50 PM

Self-preservation is an innate instinct but if believing in authority leads to self-preservation, they will believe in authority. Millions were led to concentration and extermination camps on that basis. Only when that authority turns on them would that be overturned. Further, those groups on the island may have been isolated from each other, at least visually, so they may not have known precisely what was going on or who was doing the shooting. Lastly, there is the expression "Frozen with fear." It is entirely possible that some of victims were exactly that and thus incapable of running.

I read that it took 40 minutes to reach the island. The current explanation is that boats were difficult to come by and that the helicopters were only surveillance helicopters that were incapable of being used as a fire platform. The latter statement implies there was not a place to land and that they were two man helicopters, much like those used in traffic surveillance. That is entirely believable given that Norway is relatively peaceful compared to the U.S. where every town with an organized police force seems to have a SWAT unit.

As far as that FBI agent goes, he was my next door neighbor for over 50 years and a close personal friend. He was the man who recruited my brother to the FBI. I had knowledge of certain undercover investigations which later became public and resulted in dozens of indictments and convictions during the late 1980's that others did not have because of the confidences shared with me. But if you don't think anyone can be trusted, I am sure I won't convince you.

July 25, 2011 4:24 PM

"The problem with the conspiracy theory label is that it is overly broad in its condemnation of speculation about political intrigue. The label provides no basis for distinguishing groundless smears from reasonable suspicions warranting investigation. History has shown all too clearly that public trust in high officials is sometimes misplaced." - Lance deHaven-Smith. "Beyond Conspiracy Theory: Patterns of High Crime in American Government." American Behavioral Scientist (February 2010), 53 (6).

July 25, 2011 4:24 PM

"The current explanation is that boats were difficult to come by and that the helicopters were only surveillance helicopters that were incapable of being used as a fire platform."~Volk

You may be familiar with the term "Plausible Deniablily"?

It is an explanation that 'sounds' reasonable, to those who may just read a report in a paper, or hear it on the news.

I for one do not see this explanation as rational or believable
It is as lollipop as NORAD and those in charge of air defense on the morning of 9/11.

I do not consider the average FBI agent to be a sinister operator.
It is when we get close to the apex of such organizations that we find the whealer dealers of political theater.

July 25, 2011 4:36 PM

"History has shown all too clearly that public trust in high officials is sometimes misplaced." - Lance deHaven-Smith. "Beyond Conspiracy Theory: Patterns of High Crime in American Government." American Behavioral Scientist (February 2010), 53 (6).

I don't know whether the writer is referring to the Watergate conspiracy or just mistrust in government officials in general (Clinton/Lewinsky or Colin Powell & WMD)here. Conspiracies and politics have been bedfellows since at least the assassination of Julius Caesar. But not everything that is sudden and improbable is the result of a conspiracy.

I think it is clear that there has been a rise of ethnic and religious extremism as was predicted by James Dale Davidson and others at least 25 years ago (The Great Reckoning) which also predicted more sovereign countries, not fewer. But that doesn't equate to a conspiracy anymore than "being into (intelligence analysis) for 35 years" makes someone an expert. I am not saying that you aren't, but was that your profession and/or were you trained by an expert in that field? I wasn't so I allow for all possibilities, but until something is proved I prefer not to believe. After all, one can say "prove it isn't a conspiracy" and we all know how hard that it is to disprove a negative.

July 25, 2011 4:39 PM

John, the problem for me on the "could one man do it" question is that the authorities outside the island that let him threw said he had a simple policeman facade.

Single policeman do not carry the kind of weaponry and ammo needed to execute a massacre like this in an hour.

Sure, one guy could have 300 rounds of ammo on him, even preloaded in magazines. But he would look like Rambo on D-Day. He would be BULGING.

I've gone out shooting with friends and carried ammo bags, mags and strips. Carrying 200 rounds in magazines takes a lot of room and is very noticeable.

Unless this guy was the best sharpshooter on the planet, you don't *kill* 80 people without taking 250-300 shots. People duck and move. People don't die from being hit just one time. If he was doing spray-and-pray, the number would be many times that higher since most of the spray kills trees.

The Columbine guys were loaded for bear and they only killed 12.

Any full-auto weapon would have been empty in minutes based on the amount of ammo one could carry. An M-16 can go through a full 100 round drum mag in about 20 seconds. And if he had pistols and was shooting slower, again, he'd have to have dozens of 10-15 round mags preloaded or be reloading after the fact.

Maybe the island authority folks were totally asleep at the wheel, but a single policeman doesn't stroll through with the type of firepower it takes to do this without drawing suspicion.

I suppose he could have had a duffle bag with him. Who knows. We'll hear a lot more soon.

15 or 20 people for one guy is a challenge. 80+ is improbable.

July 25, 2011 4:43 PM

Buy the way, if you have seen an aerial view of the island you will not there are plenty of open spaces for a helicopter landing.
They didn't have to use them as 'gunships' simply as transport.

This delay stinks to high heaven. And is only one aspect of this case that is unbelievable.

Norwegian Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg said:
"No one will bomb us to silence. No one wil shoot us to silence. No one will ever scare us away from being Norway. You will not destroy us. You will not destroy our democracy or our ideals for a better world." - (At a press conference in Oslo. Source: BBC's report "As it happened: Norway attacks")

It sounds as if Stoltenberg is addressing someone other than a "lone gunman" in this address. Aye?

Have you ever heard JFKs "Secret Societies" speach to the pressclub?
You should find and listen - or get a transcript.
He knew who is real enemies were.

July 25, 2011 4:49 PM

"I think it is clear that there has been a rise of ethnic and religious extremism as was predicted by James Dale Davidson and others at least 25 years ago."~Volk

Design masquerading as diagnosis.

It is easy to 'predict' something that is being covertly engineered.

Zbigniew Brzezinski created the Taliban, Al Qaeda, as National Security Advisor to the Carter regime.
"Taliban" is Pashtun for "student". The US funded and provided the text books for a fanatical Islam for the Afghans in the late 70s and early 80s.
'The Western Toilet', in street Arabic, 'al Qaeda' was also a joint M16, CIA, Mossad op led by Brzezinski, and has been publically admitted by the man.
It should be no surprise then to find a radical fundamentalist Islamic movement in the Middle East...and spreading.

The historical analog to this would be the Muslim Brotherhood, a creation of a 'controlled opposition' by the British Raj during their time with open empire.

As far as my expertise in intel analyst, it is apparent or it is not, depending on who is reading my commentary here.

As to Lance deHaven-Smith's comment and your reply; "I don't know whether the writer is referring to the Watergate conspiracy or just mistrust..." - What he was saying is clear and to the point, a general open ended bashing of "conspiracy theory" is jejune.
That is what he said and that is what he was talking about.

July 25, 2011 5:09 PM

And surprisingly nobody but nobody said here yet,
They'll have to pry my gun from my cold dead fingers"

Hmmm? Well there I said it. I mean it.
So bring on the donkey...


July 25, 2011 5:46 PM

By Trotskyite Neocon David Horowitz

Is this the spark that lit Breivik's fuse?

July 25, 2011 10:53 PM

The article of rabid anti-Islamic hatred is by Joseph Klein.

The website is by Trotskyite Neocon David Horowitz.

The Pot calls the China black there...

July 26, 2011 12:15 AM

A hunt for possible British accomplices of the mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik is under way after it emerged that he began his deadly “crusade” after meeting other Right-wing extremists in London.
Scotland Yard counter-terrorism officers are now trying to establish whether Breivik visited London in recent years and whether he was part of a wider network preparing to carry out similar attacks.

The 32 year-old boasted that he was just one of up to 80 “solo martyr cells” recruited throughout Western Europe who were ready to follow his example of trying to overthrow governments tolerant of Islam.

He said he regarded himself as a successor to the medieval Knights Templar, and claimed to have been recruited at a meeting in London in April 2002, which was hosted by two English extremists and attended by eight people in total.

 It emerged that the police response to the massacre on Utoya was hampered when a boat was overloaded with equipment and its motor stopped ~Telegraph UK

This is a red herring. Why believe this blather from the murderer. This is a legend to throw the police and all looking into this off the trail of his true handlers. This “heroic myth” that he was able to pull off the bombing and all the rest solo is a fairytale.

Thus is a joint US/Israeli job and the cover story blabbed by Breivik is a well rehearsed script. It is simply not rational that Breivik would feed the police investigators real leads to his compatriots so they could be rounded up before furthering this wanked out agenda.
And if there are people rounded up it is most likely to be people the intel groups want out of the way

If Breivik is MK this could be a hypnoscript so he really believes it in this alter state, so he can pass lie detector tests and whatnot.
No, this is too straight forward and easy, I see legend in spades here.


July 26, 2011 1:01 AM

One of my gun owning friends who has a lot of cop friends is amazed that this guy is still alive. In New York, he says, the cops would have claimed he pointed his gut at them and put 30 or 40 bullets in him. They've done similar things.

Why is he still alive?

July 26, 2011 6:29 AM

Norway is debating arming cops. Wrong debate, there aren't enough cops and never will be.

Unsettling Wariness in Norway, Where Police Are Rarely Armed
After Friday's deadly attacks in Norway, questions are growing about whether the police are equipped to deal with violent crime.

Whether Officer Berntsen tried to stop the gunman is still being debated. But facing a man carrying multiple guns and ample ammunition, there was little he could do. Like most other police officers here, he had no weapon.

You said, "victim disarmament zone."

July 26, 2011 6:58 AM

In an article about this massacre, the London Telegraph had a fantastic opening sentence that I think describes the course of this comments thread perfectly:

"There are five stages of dealing with terrorism – horror, shock, denial, acceptance, and blaming the Jews."

July 26, 2011 11:12 AM

Sheesh. The conspiracies just won't stop, will they?

Is it my imagination or do I detect some amount of steering of attention away from the fact that this guy was an anti-Islamic right-winger? I thought we were told that the terrorists are all Moslems killing good Christians and Jews?

I'll tell you what almost all terrorists have in common -- and have always had in common throughout history. Even more so than "all Islamic".

They're all possessed by fanatical belief.

Their belief may be religious in nature -- and here, there are more examples than I can recount. Whether or not one believes Islam to be inherently more likely to foster the mentality of the fanatical killer, it is certainly true that a theocratic society built around ANY religion is more likely to foster such than a society of free religion, such as we are blessed with here in the USA.

Their belief may be philosophical or based on a cult of personality, as happened in Germany under Hitler (the oft-recalled example of "the worst killers in history were atheists").

Or it may be based on simple delusion due to mental illness. But perhaps I repeat myself.

July 26, 2011 11:32 AM

Actually, an interesting observation about gun control. It would behoove anyone interested in stopping the spread of gun control to learn a little Acadian history. I'm an Acadian, so I'll tell you.

You might know that in 1755, the British began what they called "a grand and noble scheme" and what we call "le grand derangement" -- the expulsion of the Acadians from lands they had held for hundreds of years, being that they were the first French colony in the new world. This was ostensibly due to the refusal on the part of the Acadians to sign an oath to the British crown that would include their willingness to take up arms against their French and Indian neighbors and blood relatives. Never mind that even those Acadians who DID agree to sign the oath were turned out of their houses.

Their goods confiscated, houses burned, and families split up to be shipped middle passage style and scattered to the winds, half of the Acadians -- thousands of men, women, and children, a population that at the time was roughly equivalent to that of New York City -- died in the first year of the expulsion. While the world may have largely forgotten, many of us have not.

What does this have to do with gun control?

As it turns out, shortly before the expulsion, the British government asked the Acadians (whose land was at the time under British control -- the land of their colony had traded hands back and forth between the French and the British several times) to give up their firearms as a show of good faith that they were not planning a traitorous attack on their current king.

Understand that the land the Acadians lived on had changed hands several times before this between the British and the French -- this fact actually contributed to Acadian identity, as switching kings so often made them grow to see themselves (and others to see them) as being, while certainly not British, also not quite French.

You can already see where this is going. As a show of good faith, the Acadians -- who by and large really did just want to be left alone -- gave up their firearms to the British officials. Shortly afterward, the Redcoats pulled them from their homes and stuffed them into boats.

How would things have played out if they had not been so quick to give away their guns?

July 26, 2011 11:55 AM

That's very interesting, Werebat. I was not familiar with that history. Thanks for sharing it. It is certainly not the only such example.

Hitler was a strong advocate of disarmament well before his Final Solution was underway.

The Bible accounts for a number of kings disarming their "friends" before wiping them out.

Mao famously said "the communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party."

A lot of pro-gun advocates have it only half right. They believe that Americans should simply be allowed to own guns. The American founding fathers not only believed in the right to own guns, they believed that every American MUST own guns.

Patrick Henry:

"Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined. The great object is that EVERY MAN be armed. Everyone who is able MUST have a gun."

George Washington:

"A free people OUGHT to be armed."

Richard Henry Lee:

""To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people ALWAYS possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."

If I were a member of Congress, I would sponsor a bill requiring all American males over the age of 18 to own at least one firearm. At the very least, it would be humorous to see what males in NYC and other gun-banned cities would do.

July 26, 2011 12:24 PM

Well, don't forget that the Romans demanded the Carthaginians also disarm to prove that they were of peaceful intent. Shortly after they disarmed, the Roman army arrived and destroyed the city and sowed salt in their fields. The South passed laws shortly after the Civil War forbidding blacks from owning guns so it would be easier to lynch them. No one who wants your guns, wants your welfare. History has taught that over and over again.

July 26, 2011 12:44 PM

And the Israelis demand that the Palistinians... Oops.

July 26, 2011 1:31 PM

"There are five stages of dealing with terrorism – horror, shock, denial, acceptance, and blaming the Jews."~Patience

And just who is blaming the Jews? Rothschild Zionism has nothing whatsoever to do with Judaism, other than using it as a cover.
This attempted smear of "antisemitism" is flacid now, and just doesn't chill the info like it used to. And this "conspiracy nut" nonsense is just as jejune.
Why did you bushwhackers hold back during the course of the initial conversation and then suddenly jump in with your smear brigade later?
If you want a history lesson on Zionism, just ask.

I think Breivik's so-called lawyer is part of the set-up, and as the only one speaking for him has painted him as something he is not. I think that Breivik is a MK, a Manchurian Candidate.
And I am not believing a lot of this detail [“I'm going to listen to Lord of the Rings music while I kill them”] that is coming out in the press – and wondering if this so-called 'manifesto' was written by him at all. Even his commentary on blogs could be hijacked fraudulent jabber by a hacking agent.
He was wearing a head set? Or shooters muffles?


July 27, 2011 2:02 AM

On July 25, another article headlined, "Anders Behring Breivik: Manufacturing a Patsy?" noting two different Facebook profiles (before and after July 22) describing him, saying:

"The first one in Norwegian was deleted minutes after (his) identity became public." A doctored English version replaced it, changing his profile to fit the crime.

His stated "interest in Winston Churchill and (anti-Nazi resistance) leader Max Manus" was deleted. In addition, his Internet postings "characterize himself not as a populist Christian conservative, but as a neo-con" pro-Israeli supporter.
Moreover, the Council of Conservative Citizens said none of his postings "are extreme or hint at a desire to commit violence." He did say he supported "Hans Rustad, a former Jewish left-winger turned neo-conservative."

The doctored Facebook profile turned a "socially liberal, pro-Israeli neo-con (into) a Christian conservative, white supremacist." Friends also contradict the new Breivik characterization, Ulav Andersson telling Russia Today, it's not at all the man he knows, saying his racial antipathies were expressed in "mundane" mild terms, adding:
He wasn't opinionated, and "never came across as some kind of religious fanatic or anything." In fact, he had no defined ideology.

Marius Helander Roset said:

"I am sure that there was shooting from two different places on the island at the same time."

"Young people interviewed by VG describe an additional perpetrator - who was not wearing a police uniform. (He) had thick dark hair and a Nordic appearance. He had a pistol in his right hand and a rifle on his back. I believe that there were two people who were shooting, says Alexander Stavdal."

July 27, 2011 2:08 AM

On the reports about Breivik's online postings, he offered his concerns.
“You have many others who are in the same ballpark, being scared of multiculturalism,” Kohn said, adding that Breivik’s alleged pro-Zionism is a sham. “We don’t need such friends, we don’t need such friends.”~Erwin Kohn

Yes, but you DO have such friends. Having such friends in Nazi Germany was one of the techniques used to claim Palestine for Israel in the first place. Zion has ALWAYS had such friends. Even the Christian fascists in Amerika are such friends, as they call themselves “Christian Zionists” now.

If anyone doubts the verasity of my comment in answer to Kohn, I will be glad to makes some extensive quotes from Theodor Herzl's diaries.~ww

July 27, 2011 2:21 AM


I have read some about Zionism and the Christian Zionists. I've read some about the situation in the Middle East. I'm far from an expert, but I've read some.

I've already said a bit about my own ethnic history. I don't see how anyone of Acadian blood can help but sympathize some with the Jews for their lack of a homeland. We, too, are a people without a land -- though some would say we are not a "people" at all, especially if they used the same criteria that judge the Palestinians to be not a people. Those who say that they are just Arabs might just as well say that we are just French, even though we were not even accepted as Quebecois, let alone French, after the deportation (those dumped off in France, and almost anywhere else, went from prosperous farmers to penniless street beggars, if they lived at all). Let them get on stage and say so, after Zachary Richards completes his rendition of "Revielle" at the Congress Acadian Mondiale, and see what the reaction is.

As you can no doubt tell, I also don't see how anyone of Acadian blood can help but sympathize with the Palestinians.

The entire affair makes me sad. Is it just that the Jews get "their" land back, land that they believe God gave to them? Is it unjust that people who have lived on land -- under an official flag or not -- for generations should be driven off of it to make room for others with an older claim? Is it just that an innocent man and his family should be driven out of his house, driven off of land that supported them, and made to suffer as penniless beggars? That last bit should hit home to any Acadians who know their history. It is sad, and it is not right, and no argument from either side can make it so.

Yet here, here on this very blog, the suggestion has been made in article that it would be for the best -- a "grand and noble scheme".

I know the outcome -- the Zionists will have their way, and time will pass, and their descendents will come to view today's time in much the same way that we today view the times of "Manifest Destiny" in our own nation. It will not be spoken of much, and when it is, it will be with a shake of the head and an admission that what was done was not right -- and with no remaining threats to Israeli sovereignty over the land, there will be no reason to deny it.

And humans being what they are, one day act will be visited upon some other group that is so horrific that the Holocaust pales in comparison, as more people will have died in it and it will be fresh in memory while the Holocaust will be something no one alive even remembers having met anyone who lived through. The Holocaust, while it seems impossible to us now, will one day be as distant and seemingly irrelevant as the expulsion of the Acadians in 1755 -- something a few scholars and curious historians have knowledge of, with minimal impact on the world at large.

That day is already coming.

Meanwhile, I wish well to both the Jews and the Palestinians.

And I worry for those who truly worship a nation (Israel) -- no good will come of that.

July 27, 2011 3:29 AM

Thank you for your thoughts Werebat.

For clarity, let me mention here; the term 'Ashkenazim Zionist ' is not a code word for the Jewish people. It has a very specific meaning, it applies to Ashenazi Zionists. It does not apply the the common Jew on the street that may be sympathetic to Zionism. Such people may relate to what they 'believe” to be Zionism, but that is not Zionism; it is a revetment, or cover for something else, and that is Rothschild Zionism, which contains a potpourri of Zionists from many 'cultures' and 'ethnicities'. It is a credo, and the first aspect of it is hierarchical – this is a point of orthodoxy.

Judaism has absolutely nothing to do with this deep form of Zionism.

This is why racial Identity Cults are delusional, driven by base instinct rather than reason - emotion based pathology, a form of xenophobia.
Mass psychology; the idiot mind of the "lynch-mob" and the social maintenance of that mass mind__a hive mind.

Great epistemic error like Sirens call from these treacherous stony shores.
Circe sips a glass of wine, fire in her breast smiling at her victims, who are so weak of mind and spirit that they deliver themselves to her barren still born mercy.~ww

July 27, 2011 4:34 AM

Werebat -

Actually, some of us are aware of the Acadians through the epic poem Evangeline by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. We read it as a unit in Unified Studies in the 8th grade. I must excuse the fact that as an 8th grade boy, my interests were anything but long form poetry. HOwever, I do remember the overarching story about the Acadian forced migration. I also remember watching a tv program back then (circa 1966) called "Combat" wherein one of the characters was name "Caj" - pronounced "cage" as in Cajun - a derivative of the word "Acadian." So there are some in the world who are aware of your ancestors plight.

July 27, 2011 12:36 PM

John Volk,

Thanks. Of course, the Acadian expulsion happened way back in 1755, and in most ways really is ancient history. We've moved on and, for the most part, joined into the other cultures around us -- my own family has become quite Americanized, which is not such a bad thing IMO. It is always better to look forward than to dwell in the past (although the past should never be forgotten).

But, I take what I know of my own family's past, and look at the Middle East -- and I have to shake my head. It would seem that people have learned nothing.

July 27, 2011 12:52 PM

People have learned something - they have learned how to kill a lot more people in less time. Ancient wars were to the death, but you can kill only so many people by hand. Industrial efficiency lets you kill a lot more.

Still, population grows even more.... Famine is the last horse of the apocalypse.

July 27, 2011 2:16 PM

“Almost all people are hypnotics. The proper authority saw to it that the proper belief should be induced and the people believed properly.”~Charles Fort

"In the aftermath of crimes perpetrated by the Cryptocracy's "lone nuts," the controlled media seek to muddy the waters with competing theories, motives, background, ideologies and affiliations acribed to the shooter. In the case of Lee Harvey Oswald he has been presented as pro-Castro and anti-Castro; a CIA agent and a Soviet agent; a pawn of the Mafia and a stooge of the FBI. The JFK assassination itself has been presented as a military coup, a mafia hit, a CIA hit, a right wing hit, a left-wing hit etc. The same game has been played with the source of the cancer pandemic in the United States. It is exacerbated by drinking coffee; on the other hand, coffee prevents cancer; cancer is caused by junk food; on the other hand studies show there is no link between junk food and cancer. The point of all of this deliberately seeded confusion is to discourage us from seeking the real causes of cancer and the actual perpetrators of conspiracy. The end result of this misdirection is that the people tend to beieve that "everything causes cancer;" therefore they continue with their status quo lifestyle. The assassination of John F. Kennedy has been so muddied that there is the tendency to think, "everyone killed Kennedy." Of course if everyone did it, then no one did; at least no one we can trace or indict or bring to justice.
This is the process at work in the media in the case of Anders Behring Breivik."~Hoffman

July 27, 2011 2:48 PM

Thirteen typical Israeli blog responses to the terror attack in Norway

1. There’s no getting away from it, Norway, was always against the state of Israel it’s not new and never will be!! We’re not in favor of the attack but to say that maybe they’ll understand us better after what happened is entirely legitimate!!!

2. Enough demagoguery! The Norwegians and Europe generally are super-anti-Semitic. So 100 people were killed there are 7 billion more people in the world. I don’t pity them they’re my enemies they hate Israel so they have it coming!!!

3. The whole world dances on Jewish blood. Europe is the same Europe and even more anti-Semitic. The killer is right!!! Europe is defeated, Norwegians are becoming a minority.

4. Ha Ha Ha! Europeans, this is your “liberalism."

5. Let them eat what they cooked.

6. Good news for Shabbat (the Sabbath). So may they increase and learn the hard way.

7. Allow me a few moments of pleasure.

8. I’m sorry, it doesn’t move me. From my point of view, let them drown in blood.

9. The boy wanted to send a message. Extreme, yes, but they don’t understand anything else.

10. Coming soon to all the Norwegians. And all the Europeans.

11. You leftists have to be wiped out too. And it will happen soon.

12. Norway's Anti-Semitism did not make it immune.

13. Norway is one of the most antisemitic countries.


July 27, 2011 3:19 PM

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