NY Times Advocates Obama Dictatorship

Pres Obama resigning would be an honourable precedent....
Exercising this 14th Amendment prerogative is irrelevant regarding the bond agencies' rating--
It states "the validity of the debt shall not be questioned"-- by whom?
As citizens we have every right to challenge it & the politicians' arrogance in presuming we would not.

Pardon my persistence, but I will note one more time [and more if necessary] that this is political theater.
Both parties have been involved in this spending game for close to a century.

I either party were serious they would tackle the military/industrial/security complex, where most of the money really goes.
They would crush the Federal Reserve - which owns both parties at any rate, so we see we remain between that rock and hard place, where the game of pretend is played out by the criminal syndicate in DC, and the press [owned by the same plutocracy that rules DC] plays it's left/right PR game, depending on which paper or channel is your wont.

There already IS a dictatorship, it is COG and it is in control as we speak and write. Any public moves in this direction are merely ornamental.
ww

Obama could do this and many in the whacko left would be happier than anything, until they said something their new dictator didn't like then they'd get slapped down with the rest of us. That fact never occurs to the rocket scientists at the NY Times and their friends. We'll be okay and only those nasty people on the right will suffer. It would backfire in a major way on them, but by that time it might be too late. OR there could be Civil War v 2.0, and it could make v 1.0 look like a walk in the park.

I believe that Obama might like to try to repeat what Hugo Chavez did in Venezuela, but I don't think it'd work nearly as well here. There are enough in the military who understand that defending the Constitution doesn't mean doing whatever the President says regardless, and hopefully enough civilians as well. The difference is that the military has sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution, and most in the military are much more honest than most of our politicians.

This is in your face GOOD-COP BAD-COP

Both "Parties" are playing you for suckers. They are both catering to the same New World Order agenda.

The coup d'etat happened in 1963. This is the coup d'grace, the final turn of the screw, and you are watching this Punch and Judy show as if it were real.

And as far as Larry Elliott's comment above, the military is already in on this with their Full Spectrum Dominance uber-strategy, and their orders for Nothcom from COG. The republic has been a corpse from 1945 forward - in stages since 1913. A coup took place in 63 because Kennedy was a 'black swan' event that took the system by surprise.
JFK knew what was up, anyone familiar with his 'Secret Society' speech to the Nat'l Press Club in 62 understands this.

The clock is ticking - you had better wake up.
ww

Nail on the head, Offensicht.

The libs love dictators when he's *their* dictator. If he's not in their camp i, he's a fascist nazi tyrant.

Conservatives occasionally look the other way when they shouldn't - this happened with Bush a few times - but for the most part they dislike when the president oversteps his power no mater who he is.

Libs only hate authority when it isn't their authority.

Our resident liberal commenter, Willy, has demonstrated this point several times. He hates the Evil Financial Overlords Who Rule The Earth, but when pushed about individualism and letting people make their own decisions, he says Americans are too stupid to make their own decisions and things like "whether we're destroying the planet" can't be left up to each individual to decide. See, he doesn't actually hate The Overloads, he's just mad that he isn't one of them. Classic liberalism.

I'm affraid Ifon doesn't know what he is talking about, and certainly doesn't understand what I am talking about.

You shuck and jive about the Bush dictatorship while seeing so very clearly that Obama is following the exact program while feigning "liberalist leftist" positions.

As far as my being a liberal commentator, this is spurious nonsense.
If you simply read my current comment you would note that. But you seem to retranslate in your over heated head, rather than reading the words written in plain English before your very eyes.

I never said "Americans are too stupid to make their own decisions," I have said however that they have been brainwashed into falling for this left/right puppet show theater - just as you are now proving you have been as well.

My arguments about Ayn Rand in the last thread were meant to explain that her views are psychotic, and they have clearly rubbed off on some on the right.
I have just as strong criticisms of a socialist state. YOU Ifon, are one of the reasons that I have to repeat things over and again. Because you obviously can't grasp my message. And then you whine about my repeating myself. This is either provocation or lunacy. Can you explain to a candid world which that is?

Why can't you state your opinions without this constant badgering?
ww

This game is for the privileged few at the expense of the many, the bipartisan cancer that's destroying America, Obama the point man in charge because who could imagine a Black president would dare. In fact, he was chosen for his commitment to wealth, power, global dominance, and grand theft at the expense of working Americans and ordinary people everywhere.

He's a fraud, a crime boss, a moral coward and serial liar, fronting for wealth, power and privilege. No wonder James Petras (weeks after his election) called him "the greatest con-man in recent history," comparing him to "Melville's Confidence Man."

"He catches your eye while he picks your pocket. He gives thanks as he packs you off to fight wars in the Middle East....He solemnly mouths vacuous pieties while he empties your Social Security funds to bail out the arch financiers who swindled your pension investments. He appoints and praises the architects of collapsed pyramid schemes to high office while promising" better times ahead he won't tolerate to assure powerful interests get it all, the public crumbs at best.

And then we have opposit of Obama, Boo Hoo Boehner built his career on being a conduit for passing public money to corporations.
His major accomplishment was the (at least) $700 billion bailout of the big banks (TARP) which he helped punch through, after receiving four million dollars from the financial services industry over his career.
Before that, he helped co-author the “No Child Left Behind Act,” a “grotesquely expensive expansion of federal power” which increased federal education spending by 80%. He also passed the obscene Medicare Part D, which Taibbi calls “a staggering $550 billion handout to the pharmaceutical industry.” He helped pass the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy lowering their rate from 40% to 35% – the lowest rate in the history of the USA.

This is such an obvious good-cop bad-cop con game I don't see how anyone can miss it...except for the Left/Right blinders are still firmly affixed to your amygdala.
ww

I would be willing to forcast that if August 2 (the nominal deadline) brings no resolution, Obama may accept Boehner's plan he already favors but won't admit it publicly to hold his weakening base.

Why? To assure "the troops are not cut off from supplies, Social Security checks can continue to go out, and the dollar is saved. Having rhetorically opposed Republicans to the last minute," he can do what he does best - lie, saying "he had no other recourse."
ww

Wow, four comments in a row? I knew you couldn't handle the frank truth, but I didn't think it would make you that mad.

:-)

Seriously though, libs will be libs. The big thing conservatives have to keep in mind is that the left, like all bullies, refuse to learn from anything but a punch in the face. Obama needs to be punched in the face.

Cut, Cap and Balance - THE only thing that is going to punch Obama sufficiently in the face to get him in line. Same with Reid and the other bullies on the left.

"...without this constant badgering"

!!!!

Seriously, dude? ALL YOU DO is badger people. No one can have an opinion on this website without you calling them out, implying how stupid they are and mocking them.

You badger the authors with the same played-out rhetoric on every article.

You badger any commenter that offers an opinion different than yours, no matter if they're addressing you directly or not. They almost never are.

Definition of badger: "Ask (someone) repeatedly and annoyingly for something; to pester"

See that word REPEATEDLY there? See that word PESTER? Now go review your last 30 comments you've made.

Holy hypocrisy, batman!

"I didn't think it would make you that mad."~Ifon

I had some things to say. It has nothing to do with emotions here, it has to do with making a rational argument - nothing more.

I nominate you to go punch Obama in the face.

The very best of luck. And I mean that most sincerely.

ww

twibi,

I call the shots as I see them. If someone says something that is obvious frogspit I will indeed call them on it. If you call that badgering you are reading from a private lexicon.

Ifon continues to call me a lib. It is nonsense. Your present post is nonsense.

I am answering you merely to point this out. It is not an attack it is a response. Live with it.
ww

Further more Twibi, rather than make your comment to my person, why don't address any point I have made and make a counter argument?

Havin a strong opinion is not a mistake. The mistake is in having nothing else.

You got anything else?

ww

And as it seems I have been left the floor, I will follow with a brief summation of the glaring reality:

So many people STILL buy the poison apple of Left/Right rhetorical
jabberwacky, while we get double teamed by this criminal syndicate
posing as 'the federal government'.

Its as obviouse as everybody's twitching fear of the future... - they feel the blade in their back - they just don't see that it is a gladio, a double edged blade a left edge and a right edge.
ww

The NYT's article finally exposes what obama has been doing from day one since he was sworn in (twice, which should have warned us that there would be trouble). With his army of czars to do his every bidding and congress abdicating their responsibility he has ruled like an emperor. obama has a very low tolerance for any push back as evidenced last Friday when he summoned the congressional leaders to the White House Saturday. Who does he think he is? An emperor?

Oh...aint this the kicker?? Ha ha ha...yea, the little people are the last in line yet again.
And to avoid political fallout, all the oinks in Congress and the White House have to do is sit and look dumb...

"The White House will almost certainly make its priority paying interest on its debts, so that the US does not default for the first time in its history. But the consequence could be delaying monthly payments to federal workers, soldiers and other employees, and also millions of cheques to social security recipients, veterans and others.

The treasury said it would release details in the coming days regarding which payments would take priority over others. It makes an average of 80m payments a month."

ww

"Who does he think he is? An emperor?"

Yea, 'emperor' in Newspeak, it's called POTUS, and it has been that since GWB's regime. You know..."the Dicider" ha ha ha ha...

"This would be a heck of a lot easier if it were a dictatorship...as long as I'm the dictator"~Bush two weeks before his coronation [to squats and giggles from the press corps].

ww

Of course not a peep out of anyone in Con-gress nor the WH about the military Industrial money vacuum:

True realty is that people of US are paying high price of US war adventures in different countries of the world. Taxpayers in the United States have spent large amount of money to finance both the unpopular War in Iraq and War in Afghanistan. Only Afghanistan ten years war expenditures have increased four hundred thirty two billion dollars. The U.S. military has a total of over 700 military bases in 130 countries around the world. US is spending huge amount of money to control different parts of world. Several unpopular governments in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan also getting huge amount of money from US to implement US agenda in the region.

On September 10th 2001 Rumpledstiltfeld announce the Pentagon had "lost" three trillion dollars from their cookie jar.
Of course that news sorta vanished with the next days headlines.
ww

Hey if y'all can't keep up with me, try Mountain Dew, I hear it puts the buzz in yer wuzz.

As conservative writer Michael Rivero points out:

Social Security is not "unfunded" nor is it an "entitlement." That is YOUR money in that trust fund. You worked for it, and it was taken out of all your paychecks your entire working life.

The Social Security Trust fund invested your money by loaning it to the US Government, which is the largest single holder of US Government debt. But the US Government is already in default in fact, as the actual tax revenues have not even come close to the projections on which the budgets were drawn up.

So the US Government has looked at all the entities they owe money to and decided that stiffing the American people is the least likely to cause them harm. They will pay the bankers and they will pay foreign nations and they will continue to bail out Wall Street for the mortgage-backed securities fraud by embezzling your retirement money you gave them in trust. The US Government is robbing you to save the private central bank! [i.e. the big banks.
ww

"badger": to pester *REPEATEDLY*

Willy: comment
Willy: comment
Willy: "it's all nonsense"
Willy: comment
Willy: "pretend president; wool over your eyes"
Willy: comment
Willy: comment
Willy: "bush was dictator too"
Willy: comment
Willy: comment

I know if I left you alone for a few hours, you would make my case for me. Thank you for being predictable.

Perhaps the attacks on each other is what is wanted. Let us attack each other, warranted or not, and get away from the real issue.
Boehner appeared on a Sunday talk show and talked about the baboon's outrageous spending spree, all of which he advocated and cried some crocodile tears on the floor of the House. Boehner advocated and voted for all of the baboon's spending.
But on the Sunday interview he said now is the first time that spending cuts have been brought up since the baboon's installation in the White House - all of which John "the boner" Boehner advocated and voted for.
Ron Paul had misgivings about Boehner being the Speaker of the House.
WW evidently is not a "nice guy" perhaps. But nice guys come in last.
Also perhaps WW doesn't agree with GHWBush's wish for a kinder and gentler nation. The events of Waco, Texas and Ruby Ridge, Idaho, where a 13 year old boy was murdered by a bullet IN THE BACK by a government thug. Nor are the SWAT Team attacks on private citizens kind and gentle.

Lest we forget government is force, pure brute force.

Boehner and the baboon are dancing to the tune played by George Soros, who in turn is having his strings pulled by the International Banking Cartels. Soros is reported to be worth 11 billion dollars. No one gets to have that much money and power - not the Casino owners, the bankers, the oil company executives, the movie stars, the pop music stars, none of them - without the okay of the international banking cartels.
Every member of Congress, save, perhaps, Ron Paul in the House, and Rand Paul in the Senate, is owned, lock, stock and barrel, by the International Banking Cartels. They must toe the line.
Thank you,
Robert Walker

Why twibi, It just breaks my heart with embarrassment to think that I am arguing on the same forum as someone with your obvious intellect.
ww

@twibi: LOL!

@Robert: Agree that Boehner is selling out but disagree that he's controlled by International Bankers. If he was, he'd simply raise the debt ceiling with no hesitation or counter-measures. No, Boehner is beholden to a much worse enemy: the power of Washingtonian politics.

It seems that some folks actually believe the puppet show broadcast from DC...that the caracters are seriously "trying to reduce the deficit," or "balance the budget," or act in the people's interest in some form or another - after all, they aren't even discussing the spending cuts which must be enacted to reduce our debt:

(1) Ending the imperial wars, which reduce - rather than strengthen - national security (and see this and this);

(2) Ending the never-ending bailouts for Wall Street;

(3) Prosecuting fraud and clawing back the ill-gotten gains;

(4) Ending the Bush tax cuts, which are hurting the economy; and

(5) Slashing pensions for public employees, at least when they are pegged to an artificially "spiked" final year's salary.

*************************************

Does anyone here see this theater as serious business from either side of the stage?
As "conservatives" do you actually think Boener is an honest broker of some sort?
Do you really identify with the political stance that only makes a self-vested sense if you have a fortune of at least a hundred million dollars?

Unless you have at least a hundred million dollars, you are cutting your own throats by siding with the criminals in DC. But Oh...you've got your prefab 'ideology' to play pretend with.
ww

"No, Boehner is beholden to a much worse enemy: the power of Washingtonian politics."~Ifon

Just the "happenstance of bickery" is what you are claiming aye Ifon.
Even though it is historically clear that through all the bickering and yahoodal of "Washnington politics," there has been one specific group that has gained over the last hundred years; International Bankers.

So what you are saying is that something that is so obvious isn't really obvious, it is just the magic of coincidence that things worked out to a well known an agenda.

I must say this is a rather dizzying concept to behold.

The walk like a duck analogy comes to mind.

What is happening right now in DC will "bring the chickens home to roost", as Malcolm famously said. What this means is this class warfare, so far mainly waged as political theater in DC as psychological operations, is entering a new stage - one that will hit the ground running. When the burner under the pot of the strategy of tension is turned up like this, the pot can only boil over.

This class confrontation will result in a polarization of civil war proportions between the oligarchy and the military, on one side, and the guerrilla and the peasantry, on the other. Because there will be no "middle class" if this agenda run in DC comes to fruition.
If you want to see such as that future would be just look to the Phoenix Program in Vietnam, the brutal contra wars of South and Central America, and finally the Balkanization template of pure "Regionalism".

Corporate Tax Holiday in Debt Ceiling Deal
As it is, leading members of the Senate are seriously considering giving the most profitable companies in the world a total tax holiday as a reward for their last seven years of systematic tax avoidance. Hundreds of billions of potential tax dollars would disappear from the Treasury. And there isn’t a peep from anyone, anywhere, on this issue.

We’re seriously talking about defaulting on our debt, and cutting Medicare and Social Security, so that Google can keep paying its current 2.4 percent effective tax rate and GE, a company that received a $140 billion bailout en route to worldwide 2010 profits of $14 billion, can not only keep paying no taxes at all , but receive a $3.2 billion tax credit from the federal government. And nobody appears to give a shod. What the smell is wrong with people? Have we all lost our minds?
~Matt Taibbi

"Perhaps the attacks on each other is what is wanted. Let us attack each other, warranted or not, and get away from the real issue."~Robert Walker

Yes, a very good point. As it is it seems no one hear is capable of speaking to the issues, and they are determined to attack anyone that is.

Is this some sort of "hear no evil - see no evil - speak no evil" syndrome? A few wisecracks in lieu of anything of substance?

When you have nothing, there are always "raspberries"...Lol
ww

31 years ago (1980) an annual salary of $50.000.00 was considered quite a lot of money. About 1970, the average annual gross income was $4,100.00 and change for a family of four.
The bank and other financial institutions received, after failing and getting a handout from the American Taxpayers via Congress and the baboon, bonuses in the billions. That's billions in bonuses -AFTER FAILING! And Boehner voted for it all. All of the billions of waste that came from White House ideas, was promoted by, urged for, and called the right thing to do by Boehner, who now vilifies the people he supported for years.
So attack WW if you think it will do any good. WW didn't create the awful situation, and he may be able to point out some ways of getting us out of this hole. He has quit digging, at least. The problem isn't WW and his opinions, a few of which I may agree with, but we would be loud in our discussions if we were to have one that could be heard. But I do respect the man.
We have lost our country. The U. N. is now in charge. It may not seem like it to most people, especially those who know the stats of all of the QBs in whatever sport has QBs.
The "accidental" exposure of a couple of tasseled nipples during a half time break garnered more response from the average American than the cost to the taxpayer of the baboon taking his wife to dinner in New York.
Prior to the last election the idiot wanker with the radio show interviewed people in Harlem regarding the election. Every respondent was okay with Obama naming Palin as his vice president. Talk about unaware.
Get it together, folks, there is no blue blood, its all red.
Thank you,
Robert Walker

**********************************************
"I want YOU to give me $14 trillion"~Uncle Sam
**********************************************

ww

“Give me control of a nation’s money and I care not who makes the laws.”~Amschel Rothschild

$=0.......The intrinsic value of a dollar is ZERO.

Does everyone here understand that?

YOUR "money" represents 'debt'. It is a ponzi scheme. One that has hit the cieling.

The solution isn't to vilify the GOP and embrace buffoonery. The solution is to simply vote Boehner out and keep educating friends and family members on conservative principles. THIS is how we win long-term: hand to hand fighting from within. And it's also the reason that we've failed thus far.

Conservatives parents have ignored raising principled kids who've ended up voting for liberals. Get back to winning hearts and minds, and the problem will fix itself.

Blaming banking cartels is lazy and a non-solution. Even if the evidence were compelling, there would be nothing we could do to stop it. I pointed this out to Willy in a previous thread debate. Getting 300,000,000 citizens to simply "stop doing what you're doing" is hopelessly absurd. Even if that were a definable directive (which of course it isn't), no one would be able to coordinate such a thing on any scale that mattered.

If the Editors haven't tuned us out at this point, would one of them kindly comment with a link to two articles?

1) The article about why third parties don't win and why we have to fix the GOP.

2) The article about why conspiracies are lazy.

I tried searching the site, but can't find them.

"Blaming banking cartels is lazy and a non-solution. Even if the evidence were compelling, there would be nothing we could do to stop it. I pointed this out to Willy in a previous thread debate."~Ifon

The evidence IS compelling Ifon.

"..there would be nothing we could do to stop it."

ANY problem has a solution. It is not facing the problem that turns the problem into 'trouble'. It is the fact that this problem has been ignored and handwaved for generations that has landed the US in trouble.
Continuing to ignore it will NEVER bring a solution to the central problem.
It is irrational to assert that the 'truth' doesn't count, and to sniff around for halfway measures.
This is what happened {by design} during the Roosevelt regime - by avoiding the central problem; the Private Federal Reserve, Roosevelt, as an agent for the plutocracy was successful in putting into effect halfway measures that 'seemed' to work for a time - until he could get us into another war for munitions profits. Quite a ploy aye? Tens of thousands of deaths "over there" as a boost for a still faltering economic system.

It is too late, that is how I see it too. But if Americans know WHO did this to them, there may be a chance to retake liberty at some point. If they never figure it out, the whole routine will just start over again.

Education is the only answer - no matter how hard the truths are we face.
Yea, we're in a hell of a fix, but daydreaming isn't going to do any good.

Thanks Ifon, at least you didn't simply roll your lips and spew raspberries.
ww

"The solution is to simply vote Boehner out and keep educating friends and family members on conservative principles."~Ifon

Voting Boehner out as a solution to a systemic problem is no solution at all.
This is systemic, personalities are simply cogs in this machine.
This is where you are misconstruing systems analysis for "conspriacy theory."
There are thousands of widget sitting waiting on the shelves to replace those that wear out, or are damaged by "voting."

And the vote is another problem you have as well, as it is as corrupt as any other part of this system.

Until America wakes up to the fact that the Federal Reserve, and those corporations that have grown up around its sinister system is the real enemy, they will continue to be spun in place by PR.
ww

C'on Ifon, think for yourself here. Make your arguments, you don't need to refer me to other articles, scragged or otherwise.

I have read so many articles debunking "conspiracy theory" I know them all by heart. They are all based in acadamiac nonsense, even the "psycholoical profiles" of 'Conspriacy Theorists'. These simply rely on argumentum authoritum...and who's authority is speaking here? The psychological community - so they argue from a double bias protecting their own turf.

It is not "conspiracy theory" that is lazy, it is the effort to dismiss hard truths that is lazy. Because once you accept the hard truth you have to DO something about it.

ww

"The first seven years of the G.W. Bush presidency increased the deficit by almost twice as much as the 32 years from JFK through G.H.W.Bush combined, and somewhat more than the 24 years from Harding through FDR combined (in inflation-adjusted dollars)."~Stephen Bloch

So...Was George W. Bush your idea of a fiscal conservative Ifon?

Is that the good old GOP you want to get back too?

ww

@Ifon By the article about 3rd parties and fixing the GOP, I think you meant this:

http://www.scragged.com/articles/third-party-torment

The article about why conspiracies are lazy doesn't ring a bell. If you could describe it a bit more, something might click.

I've got a theory. I assume that just about everyone tries to do the best for himself or herself based on what he's given. When public employee unions spend as much as they can electing politicans like Obama so they can sit at both sides of the negotiating table and rip us off, are they conspiring? Or are they merely acting in their own self-interest? Is there a difference?

I think that most of our problems in these discussions are semantic. A long time ago, someone said there wasn't a dime's worth of difference between the two parties. That's correct - Dems and Reps both rip us off as much as they can. Is that a conspiracy? Or is it simply groups of folks acting in their own best interests?

The fire and smoke about the debt ceiling MIGHT be smoke and mirrors, as some have said, or it MIGHT be the first shot in a war to take back the country. We won't know until the dust settles.

My point is that everybody is greedy including businessmen and bureaucrats.

http://www.scragged.com/articles/angel-bureaucrats-vs-business-devils

If we let them, they'll rob us as much as they can, from the lowest level bureaucrat in the DMV to the President Himself. If they can't rob us by themselves, they'll work together to rip us off.

Is that conspiracy? I see whatever we call it as snynomymous with human nature. That's the whole point of the Confucian Cycle articles.

OF COURSE there are long-term rich families who have huge amounts of power. Would be strange if it were not so. OF COURSE they try to keep it quiet - they don't want to attract kidnappers or assassins.

Are they conspiring? Probably.

I've been thinking and an article may be forming.

Anyway, Ifon, please let me know as much as you can about the other article and I will try to find it.

And on the left hand we have the Demon-crats...

The U.S. Constitution requires that a presidential candidate be a natural-born citizen in order to be eligible for the office of President.

In seeking to define the meaning of “natural born citizenship”, those who blindly support Obama desperately seek a minimalist’s definition of the term. They desire that a natural-born citizen is one to whom may be ascribed as few requirements as possible in order that a candidate, with whom they share ideological fetishes, can be president regardless of his actual fitness for the office. They seek to assume jurisdiction over the declaration of being “natural born” in the minds of as many as possible while contending that “natural born citizenship” means the fewest, most remedial natal circumstances possible, which will allow their politigod, Barack Obama, just enough legitimacy to squeak by and be eligible.

But there is more to this - the upper body of both parties have to be aware of this. Why aren't the Republicans all over this like gnats on rotten fruit?

I am an expert on Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator. I can tell you without the slightest doubt that the so-called 'Long Form' B-cert posted by the WH a couple months ago is a blatant and amature hoax. This doc came in layers. One simply cannot 'scan' a document that results in such layers in Adobe.
I have a lot of good info on this besides my own assessment.

To my thinking this is another of what is called, 'The Revelation of the Method'.

Without going into it in detail, this revelation is a form of 'contract', that is, the truth is revealed, you accept it, even if it is uncomprehensable to you - you are then 'contracted' - as "ignorance is no excuse under the law".

This is the same case as in the revelations of high crimes by the FED just recently in the partial audit, that showed trillions of dollars unlawfully spread out to foreign banking institutions.

The American people whether they comprehend the gravity or not, have not reacted in any appreciable manner - they are 'contracted'- again because, "ignorance is no excuse under the law".

The American people have suffered under blatant unconstitutional governance for decade after decade. To the legally piggally thinking of the plutocrats, this is tacit 'contract'.

I am not saying it IS lawful, I am stating the position of the Elite Cabal. It is not lawful, just as any con job is not. but the legal games and rhetoric will be stated and enforced nevertheless.

Obama is an utter and complete fraud. The 'government' is an utter and complete fraud. The economic system is an utter and complete fraud.
And the people are in a trance enduced by a Public Relations Regime.
ww

Are businessmen greedy? Can they be trusted to do the right thing even if they have a virtual monopoly? An interesting article about Standard Oil and J D Rockefeller await you with the link below. It totally exposes how the government has failed again in attempting to right a wrong which was as usual, wrong by the government. Hope you read it and enjoy it.
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/witch-hunting-for-robber-barons-the-standard-oil-story/

1-20-2013

Ifon,
You and WW are the two who get me to think. You're more than half way there, and the road is rough. Keep walkin'. My diatribes regarding your posts are meant to get you working you have potential.
Pay attention to WW's post on conspiracies. And the rest of Scragged's followers as well.
Robert Walker

Now addressing Will's comment above. In a very real sense what he is saying is true. Is it 'conspiracy' in most cases? No it is a systemic analysis that can show that whatever 'conspiracy' is at hand is open and in the record. Technically a 'conspiracy' must be secret. And in the case of the agenda by the Banking Cabal it is not secret...it is simply unpropagated. This is different. To distract to hide the agenda is a distraction - not a secret.

This is why in a very real way we have a failure to communicate because of semantics. It is well to understand the dynamics of rhetoric as we proceed to grasp what is happening.
It is also well to gain some grasp of social engineering and PR, and to perhaps have a look at Bernays and his book, PROPAGANDA - be forwarned however - Bernays himself is a master propagandist, and if you do not pay attention to the very first propositions in his argument you may find yourslef agreeing to the rest of it - which does not prove his initial assertions, but is mainly general truths that have you agreeing with them. It is the slick used car salesman technique - the game of the carny hawker.

ww

"muckraker" Tarbell...hmmm.

I just read the article on Standard Oil that you posted Bassboat.
As it is acknowledged all 'round, there are always two sides to any story
[at least two]. Having made a study of Standard oil some years back I know the other side of the story quite well. To say that this one you offer is a "defense lawyers brief" of, not only Standard Oil, but the concept of "efficiency monopoly" as well, is all I will say at this point rather than get into another Atlas struggle with you.

Recalling the comments of Judge Bork in the hearings for his nomination to the Supreme Court I hark back to his comment on the question of where one might put the limits of monopoly holdings. Pushed further into his commentary he finally made the statement that in his view, if One Single Company ended up owning and running EVERYTHING it would be proper in his view.
Of course this is a 'constitutional scholar' who when asked to state the meaning of the 9th Amendment to the Constitution said, "Well Senator, no one seems to know what that is supposed to mean." and went on further to say that to his knowledge it had never been used in case law to his knowledge.

Do you know the meaning of the 9th Amendment Bassboat?
Do you know that it has in fact been sighted in case law many times over?
Do you understand that the 9th is the lynch pin that allowed the rest of the Amendments to be enacted against the protestations of the Hamiltonian arguments against a Bill of Rights?

All of this deals back to the concept of 'efficient monopoly' theory, if you are thinking I am trying to distract from the Standard Oil article.
ww
ww

As we look back on the horrors of the dictatorships and autocracies of the past, one particular question consistently arises; how was it possible for the common men of these eras to NOT notice what was happening around them? How could they have stood as statues unaware or uncaring as their cultures were overrun by fascism, communism, collectivism, and elitism? Of course, we have the advantage of hindsight, and are able to research and examine the misdeeds of the past at our leisure. Unfortunately, such hindsight does not necessarily shield us from the long cast shadow of tyranny in our own day. For that, the increasingly uncommon gift of foresight is required.

The prevalence of apathy and ignorance sets the stage for the slow and highly deliberate process of centralization. Once dishonest governments accomplish an atmosphere of inaction and condition a sense of frailty within the citizenry, the sky is truly the limit.~Brandon Smith

The increasingly uncommon gift of foresight is firmly based in the knowledge and understanding of history, and a clear grasp of the present—one not muddled by fear, delusions, and wishful thinking.~ww

I do not consider the events of 9/11 a 'conspiracy', I consider the events a systemic act of state.
By 'state', I do not mean there is knowledge of the planning by the entire 'government', but that it is an act of state directed by the actual controllers of that state. Some analysts call these actors 'rogue elements withing the state'. I disagree, the 'rogue elements' are the actual controllers of the state. This is not a semantic argument, there is a deep difference between the two views, because routing out 'rogue elements' is one thing, overthrowing the deep and powerful controllers something else entirely. ~ww

Blame Everything On The Truth Seekers
“All disasters, all violent crimes, all the ills of the world, are hoisted upon the shoulders of activist groups and political rivals. They are falsely associated with fringe elements already disliked by society (racists, terrorists, etc). A bogus consensus is created through puppet media in an attempt to make the public believe that “everyone else” must have the same exact views, and those who express contrary positions must be “crazy”, or “extremist”. Events are even engineered by the corrupt system and pinned on those demanding transparency and liberty. The goal is to drive anti-totalitarian organizations into self censorship. That is to say, instead of silencing them directly, the state causes activists to silence themselves.

Tyrannical power structures cannot function without scapegoats. There must always be an elusive boogie man under the bed of every citizen, otherwise, those citizens may turn their attention, and their anger, towards the real culprit behind their troubles. By scapegoating stewards of the truth, such governments are able to kill two birds with one stone.”~Brandon Smith

The elusive boogeyman. Muslims, Christians, Jews, Atheists, Ayatollahs, the Pope, Democrats, Republicans, Tea Partiers, Libertarians, Illegal Immigrants,... Everyone but the followers of Scragged. And maybe some of them.
Thank you,
Robert Walker

Conspiracy Theories:

Let's use each of us for this experiment. There is an event that can cause you great material and social status but there is one deep, dark, secret on how you were able to achieve this event. You had confided in 40 friends and they all assured you that they would never reveal your secret.

Now the question is, human nature being what it is, what is your opinion of 40 people keeping their mouth closed for 40 years? Besides what I believe to be fact that people like to let people think that they are "in the know" and either accidentally or intentionally reveal your secret, you have the added pressure of never ticking any of these 40 people off over the next 40 years.

What I have presented is really a small incident. Let's move this to the international banking houses, the JFK assassination, the government's involvement in 9-11 or did the plane really crash into the pentagon, or any other conspiracy that people try to conjure up.

You come to your own conclusions about conspiracies but for me, people can't keep secrets over a long period of time, much less a bunch of people.

Bassboat,
Your argument is both specious and spurious.

Forty people can keep a secret if all forty will benefit from keeping the secret.
It is compartmentalized, not all of the participants know all of he conspiracy - at least not at first.
Was it Dick Cheney who was wounded during a hunting "accident" in Texas?
"SHUT UP BOY!" writ large in the great outback of Texas.
Thank you,
Robert Walker

Robert W.

The conspiracy post was simply my opinion, right or wrong. I felt as though the flip side to conspiracies needed a little air time. I respect your right to disagree.

Again Bassboat you can not distinguish between a "conspiracy theory" and a systemic act of state.

After all, it is not as if any of the details of any of these events are not revealed.

With your little theory you just expounded you do not take into account,

>"Need to Know" in the military chain of command.

>Compartmentalization of activities.

>Confusion of participants {Is this real world or exercise? - fighter pilot of a responder team.}

>Recognition of participation only-after-the-fact, by 'innocent' participants in compartmentalized activities.

>The possibility of being framed for coming forward.

>The recognition of being blackballed for speaking out. {whistle blowers blues}

>As an act of state, all of the powers of the state are at hand to manipulate the aftermath.

And it is the cover-up that is always the most revealing of all.
As per 9/11 the Commission itself – a totally and transparently ludicrous story of “incompetence”. {one by the way, disowned by the chairs of the committee themselves, Kean and Hamilton}

Your 'thought experiment' fails on account of its juvenile aspects.
ww

Do not be alarmed Bassboat at a critical response to your opinions.
I am not alarmed by your criticisms of myself.
Let us merely think these things through together.
You are welcome to keep your opinions as you see fit. However and informed opinion is going to trump the uninformed.

Any characterizations I make, such as "juvenile" are not meant to wound your ego, but to place a realistic criticism of where such thinking derives.
ww

BTW...I don't want to lead this commentary on a debate on 9/11. I merely wanted to distinguish between what is referred to as "conspiracy theory" and an analysis of the deep state structure - a systemic approach.
ww

There is a difference between a conspiracy and a cover up. A conspiracy is a plan or plot to hide something against the law while a cover up has not been planned. Some would think that the cover up after the fact as being a conspiracy but that is the subtle difference, one, the plan to knowingly do something illegal and cover it up and two, the cover up which is done after the unplanned illegal act. Once again, subtle but different.

Bassboat is of course correct.

You can call it conspiracy or cover-up our act of state. You can say that all forty people (there would be many thousands of people at this point if you follow bassboat's science) would keep quiet if they had incentive.

But the bottom line is the same: you're asserting that billions of humans are led, governed, manipulated and controlled by leaders they do not see or understand, and this even though there are thousands of journalists (organized and independent) with a mic and camera looking for their next pulitzer.

The age of information, both discovery and dissemination, has exploded thanks to the internet.

World leaders can barely hide their affairs, much less run a global conspiracy/cover-up/act of state.

Okkam's razor is clear on questions such as this.

And, bassboat, I'll wait for Willy to answer and then use his answer to demonstrate another common point about conspiracies - why they can never be dissuaded our disproven. See, I made your point weeks ago and know the response.

"A conspiracy is a plan or plot to hide something against the law while a cover up has not been planned."~Bassboat

But of course there are contingencies for the cover-up planned along side the planning of the event. Countless revetments are prepared for eventualities of unexpected leakage.

“Some would think that the cover up after the fact as being a conspiracy but that is the subtle difference, one, the plan to knowingly do something illegal and cover it up and two, the cover up which is done after the unplanned illegal act. Once again, subtle but different."

What would be the motivation to cover-up an “unplanned illegal act,” Bassboat?
The whole reasoning behind a cover-up is to disguise the planning. A cover-up that asserts that the illegal act, was actually merely “incompetence” and not part of a covert operation, is still a cover-up, and one that is precisely the definition of a conspiracy.
ww

“You can call it conspiracy or cover-up our act of state. You can say that all forty people (there would be many thousands of people at this point if you follow bassboat's science) would keep quiet if they had incentive.”~Ifon

This idea that there would be thousands is as absurd as Bassboats “science”. As I already pointed out in my first response to him – see those points. The great majority of the participants would have no 'need to know' and therefore no knowledge of how their separate efforts could possibly be related to some nefarious act.

“But the bottom line is the same: you're asserting that billions of humans are led, governed, manipulated and controlled by leaders they do not see or understand, and this even though there are thousands of journalists (organized and independent) with a mic and camera looking for their next pulitzer.
The age of information, both discovery and dissemination, has exploded thanks to the internet.”

You disregard that the mainstream media is controlled by those ruling the planet. You disregard as well, that there are thousands of sites on the Internet that have exposed the real story.

“World leaders can barely hide their affairs, much less run a global conspiracy/cover-up/act of state.”

Anytime a leaders affair is exposed is for the benefit of the globalist to keep said leader in line or destroy his/her reputation, or put them out of the way.

Occums razor, is misunderstood by you as much as your spelling of it: "Okkam's razor."
ww

Now, what I have been attempting to do here is give a more sophisticated understanding of the Architecture of Modern Political Power - one that stands beyond the programmed mind set paradigm of those mezmerized by the Public Relations Regime.

I understand how difficult it is to raise yourself out of the box that you have been put in and think out of it. But we are facing the greatest crisis of the modern era right now. Unless you can snap out of your trance you will find yourself submerged in the globalsist's gulag.

America has already been brought to its knees by this phoney fiat money system, and what is happening right now in DC is what will lead to the total collapse of this nation as a sovereign entity.
Perhaps not on August 3, but soon. There is no chance of the economic system's recovery. It has been engineered for this collapse in order to bring about their New World Order.

You can twitch and whimper and hold on to your delusions, but you are going to end up where they are taking you anyway, unless you and millions like you wake up.
ww

Harry Reid signs off on possible debt-ceiling deal 31 Jul 2011 Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) has given tentative approval to a potential deal that would raise the nation's debt limit while cutting spending, with time running out for Congress to act before the nation loses its ability to borrow money to pay its bills. Reid's endorsement, subject to the approval of his caucus, indicates the White House and congressional leaders may have narrowed remaining differences on a final package that could be put to a vote soon.

Just what kind of "deal" this is, and what further disasters it will lead to remains to be seen.

More than any other nation, the US depends on others for deficit financing, making up shortfalls by out-of-control money creation. The Fed, in fact, accumulated trillions on its balance sheet, making up for what foreign countries won't buy, plus trillions more in toxic debt, offloaded to them by Wall Street. Moreover, consumers are extremely debt dependent through mortgages, credit cards, and other ways they borrow.
Most dangerous, however, "America's largest banks have the greatest exposure to high risk derivatives - nearly 40% more today than during the debt crisis of 2008." They're a ticking time bomb able to explode anytime when least expected.
ww

The whole debt ceiling issue over the past few weeks is completely irrelevant. Our “elected” representatives in Washington along with the mainstream media have been wasting thousands of hours of time and hundreds of millions of dollars debating a topic that has no meaning at all. The President, Senate, and House of Representatives are putting on a show to make it look like they care about cutting spending and balancing the budget. Except for a select few elected representatives like Ron Paul who care about protecting the U.S. Constitution and preserving what little purchasing power the U.S. dollar still has left, every other politician in Washington is putting on a complete charade in order to trick their constituents into believing there is a difference between the proposals from the Republicans and Democrats.

While our incompetent and corrupt mainstream media has been proclaiming there are major differences between the two bills proposed by House Speaker John Boehner and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, NIA believes John Boehner might as well be a Democrat and Harry Reid could easily pass himself off as a Republican. There are absolutely no meaningful fundamental differences between Boehner's plan that was approved by the House of Representatives yesterday evening, before being killed by the Senate two short hours later, and Reid's bill, which was just rejected by the House today in a preemptive vote before the Senate even had a chance to vote on it.

The budget that former President Bush submitted to Congress in early-2007, projected the deficit to decline in each of the following four fiscal years. Not only did the deficit not decline the next four years in a row, but it nearly tripled in 2008 and from there more than tripled in 2009. Shockingly, Bush's budget actually projected a $61 billion surplus in fiscal year 2012, but instead we will have a budget deficit of $1.1 trillion based on President Obama's latest budget, which takes into account unrealistic GDP growth next year of 4.86%.

U.S. GDP growth for the first quarter of 2011 was just revised down yesterday by 81% from 1.91% to 0.36%. The advance estimate of second quarter GDP growth came in at 1.28%, well below the consensus estimate of 1.8%.
If this is the highest GDP growth the U.S. could muster after the Federal Reserve's $600 billion in QE2 money printing, this should prove once and for all that monetary inflation does not create real economic growth and employment.

The U.S. Treasury as of Thursday night had $51.6 billion in cash, with its cash position declining by $15.2 billion during the previous 24 hours. It expects to bring in $172.4 billion from August 3rd through August 31st in tax receipts, but is scheduled to pay out $306.7 billion during this time period for an estimated deficit of $134.3 billion. The U.S. is scheduled to make its next interest payment on the national debt on August 15th and it will equal approximately $30 billion. Over the last 9 months the U.S. has spent a total of $385.9 billion on interest payments on the national debt, which means it is on track to spend a record $514.5 billion this year on interest payments alone. Just a tiny 30 basis point increase in the interest rate on the national debt would totally wipe out the deficit reductions proposed by both Boehner and Reid.
-NIA
ww

The mainstream media has been reporting all week that if the U.S. defaults on its debt as a result of a failure to raise the debt ceiling, it will be the first time that our nation has defaulted on its debt obligations. The real U.S. debt default already occurred in 1971 when President Nixon closed the gold window and stopped allowing foreign governments to convert their U.S. dollar holdings into gold. Since then, the U.S. currency system has been completely fiat and the national debt has increased by 3,400%.

For the past 40 years, the U.S. government has been running on fumes left over from when countries were able to convert their paper U.S. dollars into gold. The price of gold has increased by 3,900% during this time period, meaning the U.S. dollar has lost 97.5% of its purchasing power. Meanwhile, the median household income has only increased by 384%. In terms of gold, the median U.S. household is earning 87.9% less income today than they did in 1971. The U.S. debt default of 1971 was many times more significant than the pending debt default, because back then our foreign creditors expected to receive real money and not a piece of paper with no real value that we print. The average American family has experienced a dramatic decline in its standard of living since 1971. The U.S. dollar and its reserve currency status is currently serving as the last thread that is keeping our "house of cards" economy propped up.

Thank you, Willy, for responding and exactly in the manner I knew you would.

Now bassboat, on to part two...

Notice what these responses do - not the details but at the macro level. Notice how each response recasts each of our questions to be outside the realm of any analysis.

This is what I call The Benefit of Abstraction, and it's used by all man-behind-the-curtain conspiracists.

I pointed out that world leaders, at every level, can barely hide their affairs which is axiomatic of modern politics. His response? Every one of those affairs being uncovered is an on-purpose ruse orchestrated by the real leaders.

Now think about that for a minute. Think about the mathematical probability of that statement. Across the globe, affairs and personal embarrassments of the elites are all - ALL! - orchestrated for the same effect and by the same coordinators to achieve the same ends. There are 6 billion people on the planet, a third of which live in developed or developing nations. Of these 2 billion, there are several hundred thousand wealthy and well-connected elites. CEOs of the largest companies, politicians, heads of universities, media figures, etc. These people are extremely well educated and have access to myriad technologies. Individually, these people live complicated lives, each trying to hide some details about their lives and promote others, all for the sake of self interest. And yet only a few men (so few, remember, that the conspiracy is closely held to no more than a few dozen) are controlling and manipulating these hundreds of thousands of elites, pulling purse strings and zooming cameras and whispering in ears without any of that same technology being used against them.

I could go on, but you get the point. The sophisticated mind, understanding how big and complex the world is, dismisses these notions immediately but it doesn't matter to the conspiracist. Why? Because wherever the jagged edges show, the conspiracist will simply insert more layers of abstraction.

This ability to add or remove layers, at will, is what makes up The Benefit of Abstraction.

Over time, rejiggering the layers creates contradictions.

Notice that Willy believes that the mainstream media is controlled by the New World Older. He believes that we CANNOT hear the truth because everyone with a microphone is part of the cover-up.

Yet this is gaping contradiction to his earlier assertions.

The MSM is extremely large. In the US alone, there many thousands of mainstream media outlets from TV to radio to print. There are almost 5,000 TV stations in the US alone. If you add radio, that numbers grows to 15,000.

I spent three years consulting to one of the top 5 media companies in the US. It is only number 5 is size, yet it employs some several thousand people. Its magazine division, which included one of the two top US news weeklies, does $100 million a year on its own.

How is it possible that a media of THIS SIZE is in on the same conspiracy that only A FEW MEN control. Earlier, both Willy and Robert believed that not even 40 men were in on it. Yet we have hundreds of thousands of reporters, journalists and researchers all toeing the same line without any of them blowing the whistle or getting curious?

The conspiracist's obvious answer to this is "none of them know". They're all told what to write and think by their editors. But even that doesn't make sense. The editorial board of the media company I worked for numbered in the hundreds.

[continued below]

[continued from above]

The conspiracist then says "they all follow the same news story told by only a few organizations". While somewhat true (the NYT has been setting the news agenda for the evening news programs for 50 years) even that is far beyond the size needed to keep the lid on. The NYT editorial board numbers in the hundreds, and it has employed thousands of different people in those positions. These people - even 1% of them - could never EVER maintain that sort of top-down directive, responding to situations according to the New World Order position for 100 years without it becoming known. Employees blow the whistle for significantly less-important matters than this.

Think about this statement for a moment... There have been more than 50 different editor-in-chiefs of the NYT *alone* in the past hundred years. Even if you only took that one position, there would have to be many MANY people in on it. And of course, remember that you'd be asserting the mathematical impossibility that that ONE MAN was controlling not only his own team but also hundreds of thousands of reporters across the entire media industry.

So which is it - few people in on it or a lot? If it's a lot, how is the lid kept on? If it's a few, how is the media so perfectly controlled?

Here's another example of a layering contradiction...

In the early 90s, a state governor few people had heard of ran for President and won. Bill Clinton's sudden thrust to the front of the race out of nowhere (the "dark horse" candidate) led conspiracist to declare that for the first time ever the New World Order had put a man in the WH that was directly part of their group.

Previous Presidents were puppets, most of whom had no idea who was actually pulling the strings. Clinton however was their very own spokesperson, and his ability to speak well and maneuver the conversation only reinforced this idea.

Basically, Clinton was the Press Secretary for the New World Order.

This worked for a few years until problems started appearing. In his second term, with his wife's legal problems and the Lewinsky incident, the conspiracist suddenly changed their tune.

Clinton was no longer the right hand of the NWO and a hand inside the puppet. He WAS the puppet.

Why the change of tune? Because they had to - you can't have the NWO being shown up. The NWO can't have major political events happening outside of their control. They have to be the ones using those events to further their control.

The NWO has to always be one step ahead, two if they can help it. That's possible when when you have The Benefit of Abstraction.

In the case of Clinton, all the conspiracists had to do was back up a step, claim that they were wrong, and that he was actually a puppet like the rest, and the narrative moves smoothly forward.

Eventually, if you push hard enough and continue to show the jagged edges, you get more and more extreme views.

David Icke is a good example. Icke has spent a lifetime rejiggering his layers, and it's led him to the belief that only some Americans are able to see the truth about the NWO because those Americas are - not joking here - a special reptilian race.

There is actually science to why these extreme views are produced over time. Without getting into the details of Complexity Theory, it boils down to my little term: The Benefit of Abstraction.

[continued below]

[continued from above]

Recursive abstractions are almost impossible to prove. As long as conspiracists have that benefit - which Willy uses ad nauseam - there is no way to dissuade or disprove their points.

At some point we should discuss the Furtive Fallacy which is also relevant here.

There are a number of other logical fallacies used by conspiracists as "proof". Look at Willy's previous "proof" posts where he's copy/pasting book and internet passages about events that have happened and speeches given. They are rife with logical fallacies, from the Converse Fallacy to the Denying The Antecedent Fallacy and everything in between. If I went in that direction now, I would be writing a book.

I could also point out that conspiracists are extremely similar to Christians, Muslims and other faith-based believers. Their actions and answers are uncannily the same, specifically in their belief that the men behind the curtain cannot do wrong. For instance, Christians believe that God cannot sin - that he is above the very concept of sin. Even if he appears to be sinning (for example, the God of the Bible is very narcissistic) it's really only for a greater purpose beyond human comprehension. While conspiracists may not love or worship the NWO, they follow the same schema. "The sheeple just don't get it."

I'll cut if off here. I'm beginning to ramble now to get in information that is far too voluminous for this space.

PS. My sincere apologies to the editors for ranting on a total unrelated rabbit trial but I wanted to expound. I actually held myself back significantly. I had five full length comments cut up that were paired down to two and half.

Good job of snipping and pasting through this Ifon.
You don't need to write the book - someone else already has.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy_theory)

Everything I wrote was off the top of my head. I did not copy/paste from any website of any kind.

Ifon originally makes this statement:
“World leaders can barely hide their affairs, much less run a global conspiracy/cover-up/act of state.”

In his new rebuttal there is this adjustment:
“I pointed out that world leaders, at every level, can barely hide their affairs which is axiomatic of modern politics. His response? Every one of those affairs being uncovered is an on-purpose ruse orchestrated by the real leaders.”

Now he conveniently adds “at every level” to imply that my statement of generality is even more gross, in order to boost his argument that much further.

Since most of us speak on general terms, this is nothing but a rhetorical trick Ifon is using to entrap me into HIS generalities.

I certainly do not mean that this happens “at every level” - nor do I mean that it is true in every single instant. I am saying that as a general rule, it is indeed the case that those in position of high power have an extreme level of impunity granted to them, and that when someone – take Strauss Khan as an example, are suddenly thrust into the headlines for a 'crime' that is simply an unspoken lifestyle reality for those in his league, that there is a political reason for this.

If we are forced to make our comments in absolute precise and detailed precision of detail, never using generalities [such as never] and must qualify each generality we make, then Ifon fails in his own rebuttal, which is itself full of generalities.

"The Benefit of Abstraction" has nothing to do with argumentum in any philosophical or school of rationalism. It is a term of computer programming that Ifon is using for his own purposes here, and pretending that it has some bearing on argumentation.

Ifon is in fact creating an “abstract argument” himself, providing words for my mouth that I have never used. For example:

“Previous Presidents were puppets, most of whom had no idea who was actually pulling the strings. Clinton however was their very own spokesperson, and his ability to speak well and maneuver the conversation only reinforced this idea.

Basically, Clinton was the Press Secretary for the New World Order.

This worked for a few years until problems started appearing. In his second term, with his wife's legal problems and the Lewinsky incident, the conspiracist suddenly changed their tune.

Clinton was no longer the right hand of the NWO and a hand inside the puppet. He WAS the puppet.”

Which is simply off the shelf balderdash having nothing to do with what I myself have said.

I'm not finished – I will address more of this as I go through his opus.
ww

Conspiracy theories are just that, theories.

As far as the complex set of details you put together concerning the NY Times. It is difficult to answer without using some general concepts, such as pointing to 'POLICY', and how in such organizations as the Times such policies are internalized by those within the organization.
Those who wish to get ahead in such organizations need not be policed by their editors, they understand the general milieu of what is and what is not “the news FIT TO PRINT.”

To say that the Times, or any other large news org has never mention the agenda of the New World Order is not true. These large organizations have printed stories on just about ever issue under the sun. But to claim that there is no general conceptual paradigm propagated by the western press/media is rather absurd. There are distinct limits to what is viewed as acceptable and what is beyond discussion – something that Ifon has so internalized that he sees it as 'what is rational, and what is not'. And when such issues are put to print by such orgs as NYTimes they are generally as screeds of ridicule, as the one Ifon has put together here.

“There are a number of other logical fallacies used by conspiracists as "proof". Look at Willy's previous "proof" posts where he's copy/pasting book and internet passages about events that have happened and speeches given. They are rife with logical fallacies, from the Converse Fallacy to the Denying The Antecedent Fallacy and everything in between. If I went in that direction now, I would be writing a book.”

So, rather than give a single example you give the excuse of the final sentence of this paragraph.

I would say Ifon, that rather than presenting what is in fact a generalized rant for the most part it would have been far more powerful a rebuttal to have actually spent the time to point out some specific charge of logical fallacy or “Converse Fallacy to the Denying The Antecedent Fallacy.”
Which you did not do in any other instance other than the point about “elite sexual affairs,” or the thing about Clinton which you made up out of whole cloth.
ww

"Conspiracy theories are just that, theories."~Bassboat

Yes, to the extent that this is true, so is the entire field of science.
ww

"I could also point out that conspiracists are extremely similar to Christians, Muslims and other faith-based believers. Their actions and answers are uncannily the same, specifically in their belief that the men behind the curtain cannot do wrong..."

This is another generalization that is absolute balderdash.
I have never claimed that the NWO has not made mistakes.
I have never claimed that their machinations go off without a hitch.
If that were the case, they would not be discovered and under scrutiny at this time.

What I find remarkable about this entire affair Ifon, is that you have gone to so much effort to deny that there is an agenda to destroy the sovereign nation of the United States, just at the time it has become most apparent. And I do consider this the very extremity of denial.

It has just been proven beyond a doubt that the FED has illegally sent trillions of dollars to overseas banks. The middle classes have been reduced to practical debt serfdom, the clowns in DC are putting on an obvious charade; and all of this has been forecast for the last sixty or more years by voices on the margins.

It is like claiming I am Peter in the story crying wolf, claiming that “the wolf hasn't shown up yet.”, while half of your own leg is mauled by the wolf.
Or pretending that this is still actually a constitutional republic, when it is obvious that it hasn't been since 1933 with the declaration of national emergency by Roosevelt, that was never rescinded and is in fact updated by every president and Congress since that time. And that the US is now under the rule of GOG, the rules of 'Continuity of Government' and has been since the morning of 9/11.

You can whine and gripe about TSA thugs molesting passengers at airports out of one side of your mouth, and deny that there is any substantial loss of our liberties while attempting to debunk 'conspiracy theory'. This is a textbook example of cognitive dissonance. And YOU are in actuality here trying to prove that I am the one who is 'crazy' with your latest motormouth rant.

This has been too long a thread already Ifon – but I am sure this is not the last time we shall cross swords here. I look forward to our next encounter.
ww

In his latest round of responses, Willy demonstrates once again the contradictions that come from layering.

For months, he has called it a cover-up and said only few people know about it. Anytime you ask about someone that would have to be involved? Nope, they're a know-nothing puppet - another layer beneath the real operators. Then, on the on the other hand, he ridicules his opponents for not seeing how "exposed" the NWO is and how the internet has shown all the evidence. Which is it - everyone knows or nobody knows? Exposed or hidden?

He also demonstrates, for the umpteenth time, why conspiracists are lazy.

Notice remarks like:

"You can whine and gripe about TSA thugs molesting passengers at airports out of one side of your mouth, and deny that there is any substantial loss of our liberties while attempting to debunk 'conspiracy theory'."

Think about this purely from a solution standpoint. My "whining and griping" about TSA is more or less exactly what the Scragged authors have written. TSA is a travesty and should be shut down.

Fighting from within, we have several choices. First, stop flying so as to punish airlines who will in turn use their power to get TSA to stop, Second, continue to write/call Congress about it. Third, elect people who will abolish the department.

This solution is not only realistic (or at least as realistic as anything else is) but also VERY HARD. It requires determination, and it requires personal sacrifice because flying is convenient. Switching to train or car travel means adding hours onto my trip.

The conspiracist's solution doesn't exist. When pushed, he'll say "just stop going along with it". Stop going along with what? Just walk right through TSA without stopping and try boarding the plane? That is of course foolhardy. Anyone who tries that will be put in jail and probably banned from flying for several years.

The conspiracist will then say "there are other ways of not listening". Which are? "If you care enough, you'll know, and if you tell others, they'll follow you"

The purpose of this daffy charade is exactly the same as the purpose for layering: The Benefit of Abstraction.

If you never commit to any finite ideas or plans, you can always blame the listener's mystification.

"You just don't see it yet. Keep following and reading, and you'll eventually see"
See what?
"It's right there before you".
I don't see anything.
"You're not looking. You're only seeing the lies that they want you to see"
No, I'm looking at what you've said and there are simple explanations that you don't consider, most of which are the result of human nature.
"Still seeing the facade. Keep looking."

As you listen to conspiracists tell their tales, remember four words: The Benefit of Abstraction.

The more honest conspiracists will attempt to be specific but usually find themselves out in lala-land really fast. David Ickes is the prime example. Others have learned that it's best not to think about details and stick to the abstract.

The religion similarities actually runs quite deep. One of the typical attributes of the believer is that their God is obvious to anyone that is looking. Those that don't see it are being willfully blinded.

Christians say "the heavens declare the glories of God." The point is that you can't see the wonders of the universe objectively without believing in a creator/designer of some kind. There is too much systems engineering going on.

Willy says:

"If that were the case [that NWO didn't make mistakes], they would not be discovered and under scrutiny at this time."

Yet, they haven't been "discovered and under scrutiny" whatsoever.

Outside of Willy's infinitesimally-small corner of the internet, nobody is aware of the NWO and their misdeeds. Nobody even knows what it is, outside of "that thing that my daffy uncle mentioned last Christmas".

There have been zero credible mainstream writers, reporters or researches who have "uncovered" the NWO. No video evidence or testimonies from anyone attached. No documentaries. No judicial investigations. Only the steam rising from the ears of pajama-wearing bloggers.

What discovery, Willy? What scrutiny? Your Alex Jones world is not the enormity you think it is. You and your ilk are small irrelevant yapping-heads who have far too much time and bandwidth at your disposal. If only you could see how big the real world was, or even how big the internet was.

"It has just been proven beyond a doubt that the FED has illegally sent trillions of dollars to overseas banks. The middle classes have been reduced to practical debt serfdom, the clowns in DC are putting on an obvious charade; and all of this has been forecast for the last sixty or more years by voices on the margins."

None of which proves or has anything whatsoever to do with the NWO or any International Banking cover-up.

The Fed is not a secret global conspiracy. It and its members have been examined and written about for decades - precisely why it has been so ridiculed by conservatives and libertarians. Its chairmen and Board of Governors (which I have some close connections to but cannot elaborate on here) have written dozens of books.

The Fed DOES NOT EQUAL secret global conspiracy.

The clowns in DC DOES NOT EQUAL secret global conspiracy.

The debt that we, the middle class, must now bare DOES NOT EQUAL secret global conspiracy.

Your attempt to use these things as "evidence" for your secret global conspiracy is laughable. One does not define the other.

It's called human nature. Decades of politicians stealing money from taxpayers and voting favors for their friends. Decades of bureaucrats expanding their power and twisting politicians for more money.

HUMAN NATURE for decades and decades on end - a clear and obvious progression.

It's kind of like that link in the rense.com webpage you thought was tracking software that could read your mail. The problem wasn't the link or any secret software. The problem was your over-stimulated sense of imagination and desire to see ominousness where none exists.

"The Benefit of Abstraction has nothing to do with argumentum in any philosophical or school of rationalism. It is a term of computer programming that Ifon is using for his own purposes here, and pretending that it has some bearing on argumentation."

This is know as missing the forest for the trees.

I never once claimed that it was "argumentum in any philosophical or school of rationalism" (whatever the heck that means)

On the contrary, I mentioned several times that it was a phrase THAT I COINED to summarize your modus operandi.

Words can be simple things, Willy. Let's review each word..

Benefit:

"An advantage or profit gained from something"

Abstraction:

"The process or result of generalization, or taking away, or where ideas are distanced from objects"

So The Benefit of Abstraction would be:

"An advantage or profit gained from generalization".

Follow?

Yes, "abstraction" is a term used in computer science. It's also used in linguistics, mathematics, sociology and art.

Words and phrases do not have to be blessed from "schools of philosophy" in order to have "some bearing on argumentation". If you believe that they do, then you continue to alienate yourself from reality. Some of us like to think for ourselves.

Well, what a busy weekend we have had.

It's probably been all but forgotten under the pontificatory avalanche, but some pages back lfon mentioned an old Scragged article about why conspiracy theories are lazy. Here it is:

http://www.scragged.com/articles/the-conspiracy-copout

That argument is specifically applicable to our current situation. Let us assume that Willy is absolutely correct, and that the world is indeed run by a semi-secret cabal of bankers. What can we do about it?

NOTHING. They are simply too powerful and almost always one step ahead. Occasionally they do get wrong-footed, but even there, their vast resources in connections bail them out.

Now, there will always be obsessive Don Quixotes who will spend their lives fruitlessly tilting at windmills. But most of us have families, and simply by virtue of the fact that each and every reader of Scragged has access to the Internet, each and every one of us has more material wealth than 99.999% of all human beings who have ever lived. That's a lot to lose... in a cause that is, by definition, hopeless.

So the question becomes, is there an alternative explanation that both a) fits the facts and b) yet gives us hope? The answer is yes, and it is lfon's suggestion: that there is little if any conspiracy as such, but simply individuals behaving as prodded by their own best interests as they see them. Change those perceived own best interests, and you can change the world.

That's what the Tea Party is trying to do, by changing the political terms on which re-election is achieved. Will it work? No clue - but it COULD work, and thus is worth a try.

And it's better than sitting around wringing our hands at the All Powerful Elites who rule all and can never be successfully challenged. You might as well believe in the alien reptiles for all the good it'll do anyone.

“For months, he has called it a cover-up and said only few people know about it. Anytime you ask about someone that would have to be involved? Nope, they're a know-nothing puppet - another layer beneath the real operators. Then, on the on the other hand, he ridicules his opponents for not seeing how "exposed" the NWO is and how the internet has shown all the evidence. Which is it - everyone knows or nobody knows? Exposed or hidden?”~Ifon

You have confused yourself Ifon – I haven't confused you. Your characterization here, entwines answers to varying aspects of what I have been speaking to and completely dismisses that the context shifts in whether we are discussing a specific event, or a general systemic critique.

You can't seem to grasp the common concept of “hidden in plane sight,” nor have you distinguished between information that is popularly propagated – information that is available, but rarely mentioned – and information that is purposely attempted to be hidden.

You speak of “layers” because you seem not be able to comprehend the concept of 'context'.
Issues do indeed have layers of context.

For me to say, which I have on many occasions, that 'the information is available in the public realm'. Is very different than saying “everybody can see it” - because most are distracted and don't care, and wouldn't recognize 'significance' if they did see it.

The problem here Ifon, is you are so determined not to understand what I am talking about that you spend every ounce of energy designing counter argumentation – which fails, because of your determination not to understand what I am actually conveying.

You accuse me of gross generalizations, and then put together a paragraph such as the one above.
And this is the 'ground floor', the 'launching pad' for the rest of your new diatribe?
If this is the foundation for the structure you are building here it is made of shifting sand, I what I have said above washes your argument away.

I will address the rest of your commentary however, as you do continue on with pails of it.
ww

"You can't seem to grasp the common concept of hidden in plane sight,"

Nor, it seems, can anyone else.

That should tell you something, Willy.

"For me to say, which I have on many occasions, that 'the information is available in the public realm'. Is very different than saying everybody can see it - because most are distracted and don't care, and wouldn't recognize 'significance' if they did see it."

Actually, no, there's not much difference at all.

Most Americans are perfectly capable of recognizing significant things and do all the time.

You fail to understand the American people because your arguments presuppose their 'stupidity'.

Freedom can be annoying because it means that other people might dismiss and ignore what you think is important. Freedom means that you have to be willing to accept others ignoring you.

*****************2
Ifon [on his post at 8:59 AM] quotes me as saying;
"You can whine and gripe about TSA thugs molesting passengers at airports out of one side of your mouth, and deny that there is any substantial loss of our liberties while attempting to debunk 'conspiracy theory'."
Then his answer, rather than addressing the point that TSA is simply the symptom and not the disease, he wants us to think about the single issue of TSA from a “solution standpoint”:

“Think about this purely from a solution standpoint. My "whining and griping" about TSA is more or less exactly what the Scragged authors have written. TSA is a travesty and should be shut down.”

So Ifon offers a “solution” - which in real effect is only a band-aid on a gaping wound needing immediate surgery.

But rather than leave this as analogy – which seems to tighten Ifon's jaw, let me put this into specific and to the point language;

>TSA is only one small aspect of the totality of the expanding police state.

>It is impossible to end TSA, without ending Homeland Security.

>It is equally impossible to end Homeland Security unless the Patriot Act is repealed.

>It is a compounded impossibility to repeal the Patriot Act with the present configuration of 'government'.

>It is impossible to reconfigure the entire government is on fell swoop as the system stands.

>>Note: it should be completely obvious at this time that the federal government does not care at all what the American people think – because they TOLD THEM WHAT TO THINK. And as angry as the people may get, they will still think what the Public Relations Regime tells them – because collectively that is all they have ever known.

As far as the rest of this 8:59 AM Ifonic post, it is nothing but flatulence and funny hula jiggle.
ww

">TSA is only one small aspect of the totality of the expanding police state."

Maybe, but so what? It still needs to be ended. And the precedent of ending it, once successful would propagate ending other unappropriated governance.

">It is impossible to end TSA, without ending Homeland Security."

Not so. The DHS itself could end TSA while still remaining as a Mossad-style domestic-intelligence agency. Perhaps MI5 would be a better example since Mossad conducts operations outside of Isreal in addition to inside.

">It is equally impossible to end Homeland Security unless the Patriot Act is repealed."

Not so. Congress could amend the Patriot Act or simply not renew funding for DHS.

">It is a compounded impossibility to repeal the Patriot Act with the present configuration of government."

Yes, which is why we should be glad we live in a nation that can CHANGE its government through the voting booth.

">It is impossible to reconfigure the entire government is on fell swoop as the system stands."

Yes and no. You are correct that the entire government cannot be reconfigured in one fell swoop, but you are wrong that in implying that that is what must be done. There have been a variety of measures, long considered impossible to change that conservatives have fought against and won. Gun control laws have been repealed. Abortion is now looked upon with public disgust, and several states are close to outlawing it.

It's hard to fight from within, but IT IS POSSIBLE to win.

"You fail to understand the American people because your arguments presuppose their 'stupidity'."~Ifon

Rather than going into the absurdity of this statement. Or even commenting on the obvious problems of mass illiteracy and all the other ways this could be answered. I shall simply put it this way, the major problem is not inherent stupidity, it is enforced ignorance by design.
Now that of course is seen by you as "part of conspiracy theory."
But if you seriously contend that the majority of the population is paying attention to anything but TV soundbites, and have an attention span longer than a matter of seconds, then we shall remain in impasse on this point

*You can't seem to grasp the common concept of hidden in plane sight,*

"Nor, it seems, can anyone else."

Plenty of people understand this concept Ifon. Especially stage magicians. But I will explain it later for you. Meanwhile I will leave you in anticip.......ation. Lol
ww

I was referring to NWO being hidden in plain sight. I understand the concept of hidden in plain sight, conceptually speaking. What I deny - as will 99.99% of every other American you ask - is that **NWO** is hidden in plain sight.

"Yes, which is why we should be glad we live in a nation that can CHANGE its government through the voting booth."~Ifon

It hasn't happened yet. You may think the roundabout of Dem?Rep regimes is some form of CHANGE, but it is entirely illusionary.
This is one of the core issues you do not comprehend.

It is blanket statements such as this one above that makes it very clear to me that you are in a state of befuddled delusion Ifon.

'The DHS itself could end TSA while still remaining as a Mossad-style domestic-intelligence agency. Perhaps MI5 would be a better example since Mossad conducts operations outside of Isreal in addition to inside."

So here is the crux of this whole matter Ifon, this "need" for a domestic intelligence agency. To defend against? What?

You have bought into this phony 'war against terrorism' hook line and sinker. There is NO war on terrorism, there is a war against freedom at home and a war OF terror waged abroad.
The republic has been DEAD for generations and you wish and hope and pretend this is not so.

I am getting sick of chipping away at this wall of concrete you have buried yourself in Ifon. You are a circus act just like the Punch and Judy show in DC. You replay the same rhetorical yankyada that blankets the country.

Cut to the chase Ifon - do you think that a despotic government is ever going to allow itself to be "voted" out of power?
Are you actually denying that this is and has been tyranny?
Do you have to see the jackboots in the streets to understand this?
What fracking more has to go on before you clue in Ifon?

"So here is the crux of this whole matter Ifon, this "need" for a domestic intelligence agency. To defend against? What?"

We've been here before, Willy, and argued to the same pointless stalemate.

You don't believe that 9/11 was caused by Islamofacism. You don't believe that the USS Cole or the Embassy bombings or the Spanish train station or any of the rest were caused by Muslim extremism.

It's all part of the same global conspiracy by puppet masters spreading fear.

A "state of befuddled delusion" is a great way of putting it indeed.

"Cut to the chase Ifon - do you think that a despotic government is ever going to allow itself to be "voted" out of power?
Are you actually denying that this is and has been tyranny?
Do you have to see the jackboots in the streets to understand this?
What fracking more has to go on before you clue in Ifon?"

Yes, actually, it would be nice to see some actual hard evidence before running off the end of the cliff with you.

Forget jackboots in the streets. Show me something small. And no, I'm not referring to the quotes and snippets of Alex Jones and company. Something with some mainstream credibility.

Your type solemnly believed that George Bush would not surrender the Presidency in January 2009.

Conspiracists everywhere, from DailyKos nuts to anarchists, all were saying "Just wait, you'll see. He's going to declare martial law at the last minute and plow forward, validating everything we've been saying."

And then... Nothing. Obama took the stage, Bush exited right and the peaceful transfer of power from 43 to 44 occurred exactly as it had every time before it.

You were wrong again.

For a group of people who are so often wrong, you have an amazing amount of confidence.

"I was referring to NWO being hidden in plain sight."~Ifon

RETHINKING AMERICA'S SECURITY: BEYOND COLD WAR TO NEW WORLD ORDER

Edited by Graham Allison and Gregory F. Treverton
Published by The American Assembly and The Council on Foreign Relations.
W-W-Norton and Co. New York * London
© 1992 ISBN 0-393-03059-8

A NEW WORLD ORDER, by Anne-Marie Slaughter - funded by Chatham House 2011

As we peel back the layers of Slaughter's vision of the "new foreign policy frontier," we see nearly every institution, organization, NGO, or consortium mentioned lined with Fortune 500 corporate sponsors and representatives pursing an agenda of global economic and military hegemony. No one would suggest that manipulating people on a massive scale, leveraging legitimate ideals such as democracy, human rights, or freedom to further a corporate-financier oligarchy's agenda constitutes anything progressive, nonetheless, Slaughter seems to believe this is not only the future of foreign policy, but an appropriate future at that.

To be clear here, you don't believe that we should have any intelligence programs of any kind? No domestic intelligence? No military intelligence? No spy programs?

"Your type solemnly believed that George Bush would not surrender the Presidency in January 2009."~Ifon

Ifon, you are not dealing with a "type" you are dealing with me personally right now. Dredging up spittle from others and imputing it to my person is simple rhetorical twaddle.

"Nothing. Obama took the stage, Bush exited right and the peaceful transfer of power from 43 to 44 occurred exactly as it had every time before it."

And you think there is a substantial difference between the two other thanparty affiliation. What changed Ifone? Besides the style of rhetoric?
Still all the wars are going on [that the Kenyan swore to end], all of the police state legislation remains and is being ever more escalated.
Just as I personally predicted during the campaign in 07/08.

"You were wrong again,"
No I was right again. You don't have any idea of what you are talking about because you are arguing, not against me, but against a type-cast.
ww

"You don't believe that 9/11 was caused by Islamofacism. You don't believe that the USS Cole or the Embassy bombings or the Spanish train station or any of the rest were caused by Muslim extremism."~Ifon

It is not a matter of "belief" Ifon, I KNOW it isn't so.
Both The Taliban and al Qaeda are creations of Western Intelligence. I will give you proof later this very day.
ww

"To be clear here, you don't believe that we should have any intelligence programs of any kind? No domestic intelligence? No military intelligence? No spy programs?"~Ifon

Certainly not as currently established.

I do think that Intelligence is important. But espionage is a very dangerous game.
As the CIA was chartered, they had no role other than analysis.
One small ambiguous clause, having to do with "other tasks the president may order" {my wording..}

As you may recall, Truman rued the day he signed the National Securuty Act and said he never imagined the CIA as an agency of covert activies.

It is a complex subject. I will leave it here.

"It is not a matter of "belief" Ifon, I KNOW [9/11 was caused by Muslims] isn't so."

There you have it ladies and gents. Nuff said. The man continues to alienate himself from reality.

"For a group of people who are so often wrong, you have an amazing amount of confidence."~Ifon

Let me, without the slightest alteration, turn this one around and mirror it back directly at you Ifon.

ww

"You don't have any idea of what you are talking about because you are arguing, not against me, but against a type-cast."

This, from the man who puts ALL political positions (liberal, conservative, libertarian, etc) into the same category and says they are all the same.

The irony is delicious.

And for the record, I AM dealing with a type. It's important to understand why conspiracists in general use the language they use and believe the fairy tales they believe. Otherwise, their fairy tales seduce weak minds.

"There you have it ladies and gents. Nuff said. The man continues to alienate himself from reality."~Ifon

Your confidence is premature Ifon.

Now, I have spent most of my afternoon here with this roundabout.
I will return later and spoil your day Ifon.
ww

"I do think that Intelligence is important. But espionage is a very dangerous game."

So then what's wrong with the DHS being stripped down to port security and domestic intelligence only, no TSA or anything else?

Some intelligence is good. I would like to know if my neighbor's mosque is planning on blowing up the town square before my children and I walk through it next weekend.

This is the way airports should be run. Intelligence should be active, not passive. Profiles should be built, based on current national/international threats, and the people that meet those profiles should be paid attention to and singled out.

"I will return later and spoil your day Ifon."

You haven't spoiled my day one whit, Willy. On the contrary, it's been fun.

You assert, I point out why you're wrong. Rinse and repeat.

You're no longer going to hijack the conversation without being answered and your lies pointed out.

By all means, continue.